Barbie Brewer is the Global Executive of People and Culture at LG Ads Solutions, a TV data company with the industry’s largest TV viewership footprint. As a passionate and resilient leader in the HR space, she has pioneered, nurtured, and grown some of the most innovative and successful workforces around the globe while becoming an industry thought leader in remote and hybrid work.
With over 20 years of HR experience holding management, vice president, and C-suite positions worldwide, Barbie has played an integral part in some of the world’s most well-known brands, including Cisco, Netflix, and ClickUp. She speaks at conference keynotes, serves on corporate boards, and engages leaders at internal company events to help aspiring leadership teams and HR departments build programs and cultures.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- Barbie Brewer shares her thoughts on social connections in the workplace
- How remote work fosters relationships
- The discrepancies in regional employee compensation
- How can organizations ensure success in a remote work environment?
- Barbie discusses the benefits of remote work
- Can remote work mitigate inequality?
- Advice for managers experimenting with work styles
- Gitlab’s remote work culture
In this episode…
Following the pandemic, remote work environments have become increasingly common. Contrary to the beliefs of managers and company leaders, this work style encourages connections and employee relationships through video meetings in personal residences. So, what are some of the widespread benefits of remote work?
According to remote work advocate Barbie Brewer, working from home fosters stronger communities by retaining employees in a given region. These flexible work locations provide a wealth of opportunities for minorities and disadvantaged people who otherwise lack the resources to commute. Employees can then give back to their community and invest in the local economy. Focusing the future of work around communities instead of companies creates greater living conditions for all populations.
In this episode of What The Teck?, Rolando Rosas and Dave Kelly sit down with Barbie Brewer, the Global Executive of People and Culture at LG Ads Solutions, to dismantle misconceptions about remote work and advocate for its widespread adoption. Barbie shares her thoughts on social connections in the workplace, the discrepancies in regional employee compensation, and how organizations can ensure success in a remote work environment.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Rolando Rosas on LinkedIn
- Dave Kelly on LinkedIn
- Global Teck Worldwide
- Barbie Brewer
- Barbie Brewer on LinkedIn
- “The Future of Work With Steve Cadigan”
- GitLab
- Circuit Loops
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by Global Teck Worldwide.
We are a full-service online retailer of professional headsets, webcams, and speaker phones from top manufacturers.
Since 2002, Global Teck Worldwide has provided affordable, high-quality communications equipment and customized telecommunications services to organizations of all sizes.
Our specialists have invested hundreds of hours in technical training, certifications, and seminars to assist customers with purchasing decisions.
We have served thousands of customers in a variety of industries with value-added services, including ergonomics, employee work accommodations, and hearing-impaired services.
If you are a government agency, small business, or Fortune 500 company, contact us at https://circuitloops.com/contact-us/ to discover a solution that fits your communication needs.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:00
Welcome to the What The Teck? podcast where we talk about business and Office Technology and put our 20 years of expertise to discussing trends and issues impacting the workplace.
Rolando Rosas 0:16
And welcome to another episode of What The Teck? I’m your host, Rolando Rosas and today we’re exploring remote work and how to be successful with remote work. And we’ve got a special guest today, Barbie Brewer, former executive at Netflix, and Chief People Officer at ClickUp. But before we get to Barbie, and all the action, I got a welcome back the other half of my show of the show, who had had a nice wonderful sit in nice sitting while we were gone.
Dave Kelly 0:47
Where’s that chair? Oh my god, I was so flattered Rolando to see the empty chair last week, I was wondering how you were going to pull it off by yourself? Oh, my goodness, there it is. Yeah. Turns out just an empty space was good enough for me. Listen, sometimes there’s an empty space between these years. So the chair and me we got a lot in common sometimes.
Rolando Rosas 1:08
Oh, my goodness, Dave, well, well deserved vacation, it looks like you got some sunshine, you’re faced with that little, you got a smile going. So you must have relaxed quite a bit and let the sun hit your face, and maybe the water hit your toes and all those
Dave Kelly 1:23
all those things, you know, not not to sound cliche. But I didn’t need a vacation after the vacation.
Rolando Rosas 1:30
You know, we’re going through some, some tough times I was we were just talking before we went live that, you know, right now as of this taping, so this is being taped August 10 and 2021. That on LinkedIn, there was an article that they were reposting from both Bloomberg and Wall Street Journal where they’re saying I’m just gonna read, rip up the playbook for the next few months, given what’s happening. And it looks like a lot of managers that were planning on going back to the office are starting to roll those back. I know LinkedIn announced last week that they were planning to send people back in September back to the office, they’re now have pushed that off into next year. And I believe Amazon also announced that they are moving that that date further back into 2022. So that’s a good five, six months away. conditions have changed, and so they’re adjusting. So if you’re thinking of going back to the office, I guess you’ve come to the right place. We’re going to discuss that today and see what Barbie is she’s clued in on a bunch of stuff that’s going on in the corporate world and love to get her thoughts and opinions on that. All right, so let’s jump into the trivia question.
Dave Kelly 2:46
All right, so what does what does our producer have for us today? Oh, my Monday is the most common sick day in the world except in this country. Oh, boy. Okay, I don’t I don’t see the United States on there. But I do see Australia, Britain, Canada, India, Japan. Wow, I have a feeling. I know what I’m thinking in my head. But we’ll we’ll get to that. At the end of the show. We’ll see what Barbie thinks about this trivial as you
Rolando Rosas 3:18
know, good one for her. Maybe she didn’t she can weigh in on that. She knows what’s going on there. All right. Let me tell you a little bit more about Barbie. Because she is she is somebody that has some ideas and thoughts that I wanted to have on this podcast for quite some time. She has a lot to say, well, let me tell you about her Do we have her here we go. She is an HR executive with 20 plus years of experience in human resources and has leadership across multiple business cycles industries, as well as countries love to probe her brain about what countries has been to. She’s focused on strategic results. Deep professionalism, Deep. I can’t even read expertise in all HR disciplines. She’s also an expertise at working at sea level with private and public companies. And she has worked at several companies that we’re going to jump into and would love to bring her out of the virtual greenroom. Let’s welcome Barbie Brewer.
Barbie Brewer 4:28
Hi all. Good to be here.
Rolando Rosas 4:29
All right. Wonderful. Where are you joining us from today?
Barbie Brewer 4:33
I am joining you from the East Bay in California from Pleasanton. All right? West Coast. Yeah. Big up to my West Coast people
Rolando Rosas 4:43
west coast in the house. So Barbie. Before we get into all the action, I want to remind our folks to as they’re watching this podcast, we’re bringing this to you live on multiple platforms, and we’re gonna keep bringing you more We’re content. We’re also streaming live on TikTok. But the other thing that you can do if you want to show us your support and love is to go ahead and click and subscribe. Get notified because we also release additional bonus footage through the week. And the only way to find out if we’ve released it is to get notified. Go ahead, hit all bands hit all the whistles. So you get on the club like everybody else.
Dave Kelly 5:23
I love your sound effect on that. And Rolando, I think he changed it up a little bit you did.
Rolando Rosas 5:31
That’s an unusual one, but I changed it up. Okay, so before we get to Barbie and her opinions on a few other things, I want to roll some footage, we’re ready for that footage. All right. Okay, so Ori’s going to queue up some footage we’re going to see that I want you to react to and get your thoughts on. I’m not going to say much about it. Was that Ori? You’re ready. Okay. So let’s go ahead and roll that footage.
Guest Speaker 6:01
Next show a majority of people say that they have been more productive working from home. Why do companies feel the need to bring their employees back? Some experts say that the physical office arrangement is outdated given that the technology exists to allow us to work remotely and the past few the experiment have taken place over the past year has shown that it’s effective. However, not everyone’s on board that the CEOs of some of the biggest banks, including JPMorgan Chase, and Goldman Sachs want workers back immediately. And what they say is that remote work doesn’t work well, for young workers who require one on one mentoring, mentorship, that just doesn’t work as well, over Zoom. And younger workers in particular, some of them really poor to the social dynamic that’s built in to working out of an office, one boss said that his his mostly young workforce is chomping at the bit to get back to work. And that could also be because they are young in their careers. And if they live in a city like London or New York, they could be working out of a shoebox. So you’re gonna have a really different experience if you’re working out of a shoebox versus a villa.
Rolando Rosas 7:17
All right, Barbie, what do you think about what you just heard?
Barbie Brewer 7:21
I don’t think it’s wrong. I think that you know, having been across the world, I do see that in different countries as well, that just have a different typical building size and things. So I remember at one company I worked with our CTO worked out of his closet. So I get that people have different needs, and and different jobs and positions have different needs and requirements as well. I love the idea of investing in co working spaces. I think, you know, there’s been some controversy around how some companies went into that in the beginning, but I think it’s ripe now for more of that. And that enables people to get that social connection if they want to work for me. And maybe just because I’m old, I don’t know.
Rolando Rosas 8:06
Experience, you’re not old.
Barbie Brewer 8:08
Okay. And also, it probably has to do with a little bit of the fact that I’m an HR. So I get to investigate all these wonderful social interactions that go bad. But I don’t know that that’s the healthy place to build
your social network or your friendships. At work, we need to be, you know, focused on where we want people we like to work with, we want to have fun with the people we work with. But we don’t want to have to make new friends every time we go to a new job as as I think Steve Cadigan mentioned in a previous podcasts you did, and people are moving companies. Commonly, right? It’s three to four years is considered a long time.
Rolando Rosas 8:45
Yeah, the 20 year plan is over with it is yeah, that’s that’s that’s probably the idea of some folks that have been around at a particular company for a long time. But it doesn’t seem like that’s what’s happening anymore.
Barbie Brewer 8:56
No, it’s not. And so I like to keep my friends around more than three to four years, ideally. So I like that I have friends in my community, and we can meet for lunch, we can go out for drinks, but I don’t have to worry if I’m complaining about my boss that day. I can do that to my friends. I can’t do that to work friends, that wouldn’t be appropriate.
Dave Kelly 9:14
Right? You know, I was surprised in that. In that little clip that she was saying that the younger, newer employees were the ones that were chomping at the bit to come out and get back to the office for that social piece. Because I I pictured folks that are in that early 20s, you know, the 30 kind of age bracket. They’re used to using social media to form relationships and to have, you know, these sorts of interactions, whether it’s on Instagram or TikTok or or other places like that. I would think that the younger folks would be more adept to, you know, being able to have those relationships and folks that are maybe a little, you know, 20 years into their, into their career there. I would think that the older folks that we would need a little little more help to get that social connection?
Barbie Brewer 10:02
Yeah, I’m not sure. You know, my son’s always, of course on video games in discord, but he’s 14. And I also think the problem is remember I went remote? In 2017? Right? So it was far before COVID Yeah, for no work. And that doesn’t mean working from home that really means working from anywhere, fundamentally or can you it during COVID, we’ve had our social networks ripped apart. Our kids haven’t been able to go to school and see their friends, I’ve been working, and I’ve been homeschooling my children, essentially, it’s very challenging. I haven’t been able to meet my girlfriends out for a drink or things. So it becomes, you know, work and your zoom calls become your only social outlet. That’s not how it’s supposed to be, right? So think about a world in which you’re not just on Zoom, or sitting in your, in your living room or at the grocery store. Right? You actually can go out and have fun and do things. And then really think about, do you really want all that to be with work folks? Or might it be great if you could build relationships within your community, and travel and and have freedom. So I think that I think young people do want social connection, they do want to, you know, go out and play pool or go bowling or have a beer. And that’s wonderful. And what what flexible working arrangements provide is for you to have that ability, and not be reliant on just your company for that. And I think it’s a different from a mind. And we’ve all been thrown into this COVID environment, which is negative in so many ways. Luckily, technology exists, so we can at least keep working and be productive. But we’ve been surviving, we haven’t been thriving. And so we really need to get into a different frame of mind of wait, I can get a lot of my needs met by people that I don’t work with. And that’s healthy.
Rolando Rosas 11:50
Yeah, that is, I think I agree with you. And I think back to our buddy, Steve, he had talked about how in other countries, social networks look a little differently, because work isn’t the center of attention of all of our lives of all of our waking moments where in the US, it tends to be work is everything for a lot of people. And because of the lack of access to the office and people being in the office, like you said, being in this situation with COVID is very different than if we all could work from the office. And there was no COVID Or we could work from home. Without COVID Like we don’t have right now we’re on top of being a lot of people forced to work remote work. Some we just have to do it because of the need or the the situation, rather than it being more like, hey, you know what, like you said, the policy for right now everybody could work from home as they need and be flexible. And there’s none of this extra health situation that we’re all having to carry and worry about. This is more of a pressure cooker situation on top of the fact that a lot of people are adjusting a new way of work. So I agree with you there. 100%, I want to ask you about something else. And there is a statement that I want to read to you. Do we have Katherine’s statement there to show Ori, we throw that up. I want to read something to you this is Katherine Merrill. She’s an executive CEO of Washington media. And here’s what she had to say to the executive, wherever as a CEO, I want my employees to understand the risks of not returning to the work off work in the office. And this was a an op ed that she had that she had written. If the employee is rarely around, management has a strong incentive to change their status to contractor. That’s, that’s really a big change, if you’re going to go from employee to contractor for many reasons. And I know you can amplify some of that and clarify that. And then she went on to say this, although there might be some pains and anxiety, going back to the office, the biggest benefit for workers may be simple job security. Remember, something every manager knows, the hardest people to let go are the ones you know. Now there’s a lot more that she had to say on this piece. There was a lot of of blowback and she She corrected some of this, or I should say she refined some of her but she basically come out and said that if you don’t come to the office, we’re changing your status to a contractor versus an employee, which for a lot of people would be a very big, big big ordeal to go through
Barbie Brewer 14:31
well and it will be for her company as well because it’s largely illegal. So law perspective she’s got something to learn there but it’s it’s a fine perspective to have it though. It sounds very much like a veiled threat to me and not very veiled. And I hate the idea of the people you know, are the people you don’t let go What does that mean? If I become a good buddy with my boss and get on his good side, then I can be a bad employee, but he’s gonna keep me around and you’re gonna deal with me because he likes me I do not like that, that at all. And you know, to me, if you can’t trust your workers in the office, then that’s the issue. If you can’t trust them in the remote work environment, that’s the issue. But why would you bring someone into an office and feel more comfortable with someone you don’t trust that way? I leave my purse by my desk, I can sometimes have to walk out to the parking garage when it’s late at night. I sure hope you trust us people I’m working with.
Dave Kelly 15:28
Yeah, good point. Good point, you know, and one of the things that kind of rubs me the wrong way with that statement is, if that’s an organization that also has a field, a field sales presence across the territories, you know, those people are, they come to that headquarters, once, twice a quarter, and then once for the big sales kickoff. So those people aren’t seen every day, they’re out in the field, they’re selling, they have their quotas, they have their reports, people know that they’re up to task and, you know, meeting meeting their their expectations, but to just say, if they’re not here, are they working for me? Do I know them or that the disposable? No, I just I don’t, I don’t agree with that statement.
Barbie Brewer 16:14
And some of my strongest relationships I’ve had in the workplace or when I was working for a remote company. So I also reject the notion that you can’t get to know somebody, unless you can touch them physically, when you shouldn’t be doing that at work. You’re having a real ability to connect online as well. And like you said, the young people have already learned this. But if I think about my six years at Netflix, if I think about my seven years at Cisco, and I think about my one and a half years at GitLab is the GitLab people I still keep in touch with. It’s the GitLab folks that are coming in, join me at clickup Nothing changed in our relationship, when one of us left a company, we could still hop on a zoom or hop on a phone and talk to each other. And we got to know each other great, in fact, better, I got to meet their kids, I got to see their dogs start barking when FedEx arrives and then see their dogs. You know, I got to see their cats or their their favorite house plant. I got to see different views of where they’re sitting, they actually welcomed me into their home, how a better way to get to know welcomed into their home. And when we would get together once every nine months and GitLab, really the only thing new we learned is height. ever said was while you’re a lot taller than I thought you’d be. You know, that was that was the main only new Aha, by by spending time together, I do think it’s important to spend time together I do think in your take those opportunities that they shouldn’t be opportunities to get work done. They should be good opportunities, they should be opportunities to bond. And so it’s just a different it’s a different narrative. It’s a different perspective of looking at it. I hope people will evolve and CEOs will evolve in this area. I think we have, quite frankly, a moral obligation to evolve in this area, especially for the SaaS business in the SaaS world.
Rolando Rosas 18:06
Right. And I think I think what you’re saying is that tech companies should should be leading the envelope here. Because they are the nature of the industry is there’s always change, things are moving and they’re they’re either accelerating in some form, because there’s new new players incumbents are starting to lose ground. And that’s the nature of a lot of tech businesses. But before we go further talking about tech and what they I want to I want to dial it into a different industry, where we have another quote from a another CEO very, very large organization as well. Do we have that Ori? here we go. Here’s his friendly face. CEO David Solomon of Morgan Stanley had to say this. This is one where I really wanted to see what you think about this, as this topic is coming up quite a bit about pay and paying employees that work in different locations than what they were hired, where they were hired, if you want and this is what he said, This is a direct quote, If you want to get paid New York rates, that’s big bucks. Oh, is this James Gorman, I’m missing? Okay. I think we said okay, I said, Hey, James Gorman, none of this. I’m in Colorado, and work in New York, and I’m getting paid. Like I’m sitting in New York City. Gorman barked. I guess that’s what the article said he barks he was must have been very emphatic about this. Sorry, let me let me say like you it sorry. That doesn’t work. Now, let me let let me end on this one. If you can go into a restaurant in New York City, you can come into the office. And when I read that, I was just floored because this is a guy who thinks because you hang out at a restaurant in New York. You equate every moment of your non working life and the judgments and Any decisions you make as if you were working? And that to me that after me, I’ll tell you, it offended me to even hear that because I think Mr. Gorman is I think a lot of employees of his would love to have a limousine, pick them up and take them to work and not have to deal with traffic, not have to deal with telecommuting helicopter would be better. But yeah, oh, yeah. And probably he takes a helicopter more than likely, right. And so if you can take a limousine to work, why not give that to your employees? It’s a really dumb argument to make. But I think that folks like him, in my opinion, are gonna see things changing. And I know attitudes are changing at work. And the latest surveys that say that are about 39% of workers would rather quit other survey that say they won’t take an additional 30,000 in pay. I know some of those people must work at there, because those surveys are also including Morgan Stanley, and some of the other banks that I saw recently. And so I don’t know how he can avoid the impact of probably keep people walking out the door and going to other places where they’ll pay him
exactly what they want, and treat them better.
Barbie Brewer 21:10
Yeah, I think that the the talent war right now is, is the most competitive it’s ever been. So employees do have a lot of options. That’s a hearing now, concern. And depending on how companies react to this moment, in time, it will grow or not. The pay issue aside from the you know, if you can go to restaurant, you can work in an office, the pain issue is, yeah, the pain issue is complex. And it’s not as simple as, it’s not simple. So for example, if I’m doing a job and and I’m doing that job in San Francisco, and you pay me $100,000 a year, I can’t afford to buy a home, I can barely afford my rent. If you if you hire me in Iowa, and pay me $100,000 a year, I can probably buy a home and maybe even support my family. So paying the same isn’t really paying the same, if that makes sense. So there is there are markets now if we can embrace this idea of work from anywhere, you’re gonna see that begin leveling out. And we’re already seeing that today. So we’re seeing now that the markets aren’t as specific to those that they used to be. But and we’re and we’re seeing some housing, pricing things going on too, right. So sometimes the suburbs are having housing prices, increasing rents increase more than the cities are.
Rolando Rosas 22:31
So I ask you about that, let me jump because I want to ask you about that just drill down a little bit more. So if you guys, let’s just say it doesn’t matter, Netflix, pick up any of the firms that you were an HR person, when somebody is applying, let’s use your example, from Iowa City, and they want to be an engineer, just to be an engineer in Iowa. And you know, versus some, some some another engineer this equal experience around the same age, same background, and they are out of San Jose, what you’re saying is, those wages today are paid differently because of where they live. And if somebody moves from San Jose, to Dubuque, Iowa, the pay may change what you’re saying.
Barbie Brewer 23:16
I think it depends on the company, the talent they’re looking for. And again, this evolution is going to change all of current day anyway. Right now, if you do want to get, you know, a director of software engineering with 20 years of experience at the best companies, you’re not going to find them outside of some of these big cities. So they’re always they’re already going to have kind of that that salary expectation. But I think that as time, I mean, what, what I’m passionate about remote work. And one of the things that means most to me is that there’s brilliant talent across this country and across this world, but there was not brilliant opportunity. So if we can bring the opportunity to the people, instead of bringing the people out of their communities, this won’t be a question for very long. With that being said, though, if you give people the choice of where to live, I don’t think the quality of life should change based on where you live or work if you work for the same company. It’s the same thing when I was at Cisco and I got sent on expat assignment in, in Germany, right, there was a cost of living adjustment for me when I made that move, because of tax differentials, because you know, all kinds of different things. And that was a cost of living differential to make me whole, it needed to adjust. Similar to if you asked me to commute to San Francisco every day for work, even though I’m only 40 minutes away. I’m going to ask for 50% more pay and if I can work from home, okay, because I don’t want to do that. So you’re gonna get different motivations and you’re gonna get it’s worth it to some people, it’s not to others. Now, what I say you should do a blanket decrease across the board. No. What we set up a Git lab was a bit unique. What we did is we did have local markets that we We looked at again, we had people in 64 countries. So we’re talking about a wide variety and what the salary market was in these different areas. But we wouldn’t pay anybody less than half of what we’re paying in San Francisco. So this meant that a lot of employees were paid over market value where they lived wage to the floor for the wager, yeah, we set a floor. So we didn’t, we didn’t perpetuate the the inequality of income, but and we were helping to improve it across the world. But it that takes time. I remember, back in the late 90s,
when everyone really started opening up offices in India, it was really disruptive to the Indian economy for a while they’re to be hiring some of these tech talent. It’s such a different market rate than what’s in India at the time. So I’m I’m okay with with letting some of this organically evolve. But I do think there’s a responsible way of doing it. And the responsible way isn’t to take advantage of poor economic areas. And that’s not the responsible way. But it doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be some trade offs. It’s the same thing where I get all the time, like, why do they get to have the commuter allowance, I don’t get a commuter allowance. When someone’s remote, like you don’t commute, you work at home, right. And so there’s certain like part of us where we need to grow up a little bit too. And understand, you know, our budgets and finances and what it means. And it’s certainly if we’re going to be in a remote world, we have to have people act like adults, if they’re going to work in an adult. But, but it is, it’s very comfortable. So we also didn’t pay anyone less if they were in within a 90 mile commute of a city. So that might mean that if you live in Modesto, California, which is far more than 90 minutes, if you’re going to San Francisco during the commute hour, you would still get San Francisco rate. So we weren’t making, we weren’t taking advantage of the lower Modesto economy. So it was there was a lot we did to try to augment it. But you have to be realistic too.
Dave Kelly 27:02
as individual employees, you know, what we need to be advocates for ourselves, you know, we try to, you know, we negotiate our salaries, we negotiate our raises, what is your worth, go get what you’re worth, regardless of where you’re located, regardless of the budget that the organization has for their employees, go get what you’re worth, be an advocate for yourself, and live where you need to live. But, you know, you would say that there’s Steve Catigan talks about the great career migration, having these new opportunities, because of the technology, you know, we have the bandwidth, we have the hardware, and it’s just finding the right organization where you can find your place, you can be successful, you can be a contributor, but always advocating for yourself for what you’re worth to get paid what you want to get paid.
Barbie Brewer 27:55
And supply and demand is a realistic economic effect in this world. Right. And so, as the supply of talent becomes broader, and demand continues, we’re going to really see this organically start to evolve. But the balls in the employee that balls in the candidates court right now. Yep. Hey,
Dave Kelly 28:15
it’s an it’s an interesting time. It’s funny how the tables have turned a little bit. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, this kind of goes to, you know, measuring success or keys to being successful within a hybrid, you know, work environment or hybrid work policy. You know, how do organizations and individuals measure success when they’re when they’re remote?
Barbie Brewer 28:42
Why would it be any different?
Rolando Rosas 28:45
I agreement then then working at so you’re not sitting physically? Well, let’s let me rephrase what Dave said. For managers. And for managers that are not used to remote work environment. Their experience on this is new to them, right. They’re used to seeing Susie and Johnny sit in their butts butts in seats in the cubicles respective cubicles right. Now, there. They’ve had measuring tools in the past, but now that they’re John and Susan are physically not there. Uh, how would how would you go about advising a company on ensuring success for this new hybrid work environment?
Barbie Brewer 29:25
I think that there’s different management skills that need to be learned, actually, I won’t say different skills that need to be learned more skills that need to be enforced, reinforced, right? So first of all, the manager who was measuring productivity by someone sitting at their desk, maybe they were watching your show, and they weren’t doing their work, they don’t
Rolando Rosas 29:42
watching our show.
Barbie Brewer 29:45
So I mean, it was a false sense of security to begin with, but doing check ins, tools, like you know, some of the equipment and things that you provide click up is great because you can see what people are working on you’re not spying, but people can share their work with you and you can contribute and things And and that’s great but you actually have to manage instead of just hoping all goes well and and you should I am biased towards managing towards results not I’m sitting at my desk or at my computer.
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