Steve Cadigan 5:21
Yeah, it just, it is exciting, but scary at the same time, how fast things and how many things are changing, right?
Rolando Rosas 5:29
Absolutely. You know, since you and I started talking, this was 2021, when he came on, one of the things that I’ve been wanting to do and more recently, finally been able to do is talk to people that can give me information from research, folks that are actually researching and studying this. And so I recently had a conversation with economist and professor of Stanford and Stanford, Nick Bloom, right in your backyard. And he had a lot of research around the topic of remote work, future work, winners and losers. And he’s going to be on a future episode. And we’re going to release that in the future. So you’ll be able to see his whole conversation, as well as Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller, formerly of Washington University, both of these individuals. These days, they cited several studies, research going back years, as well as current, that all pretty much say the same thing there. They have research says, remote work, work flexibility is good for the bottom line. It’s good for the worker, it’s good for the employer. It’s good for the culture, in which that last point is what a lot of the pushback on return to office and we’re going to get into return to office in the moment, a lot of the pushback is on culture. But I don’t hear any of the big tech companies right now that are really mandating as well as the financial firms saying anything about profitability being impacted negatively, when it comes to return. When it comes to remote work. The discussion is squarely been focused on something you you can’t I guess you can’t but you’ll fill me in can you measure culture? Can you measure the impact of culture as the way they’re describing return to office and its negative impact or remote work and its negative impact on work culture? So we’re gonna jump into that and and chew that up a bit today. Great. All right.
Dave Kelly 7:32
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Rolando Rosas 9:05
Awesome. Thank you, Dave. So let’s jump into this with Mr. Steve Cadigan. Steve, you know the drill around here. We don’t just do conversation, but just for the sake of talking. I want you to look at this clip. Got to do with return to Office Go ahead and roll that Ori mandating its workers return to the office,
Speaker 4 9:29
return to the office to return to the office to return to office back into the office
Speaker 5 9:34
back to the office. Even zoom the company this is now throwing in the towel on fully remote work company that cashed in on the digital work revolution is now requiring most employees to work in person in person.
Rolando Rosas 9:47
What is going on Steve? These are the tech Titans that are talking about stuff that’s completely opposite of what we knew they would want to do about A year ago or two years ago, especially when they’re putting out solutions that enable workers to do all this stuff from home.
Steve Cadigan 10:07
That’s right, isn’t it? The irony and zoom was probably the biggest one, right? That got absolutely riled up that way you’re profiting from this, shouldn’t you be a model for how to leverage that technology more effectively. And I think it comes down to pretty simple human nature on one level, which is, most schools have taught us most experiences, most organizations have taught us and we’ve all built models to learn how to thrive and succeed when we are together. Okay? How you build teams, it’s all based on being together, physically, how buildings have been designed, have all been about that, how, you know, organizations have run, how they plan, how they built budgets, how they built financial plans, has all, you know, originated with that in mind. And so what we’re seeing right now, post pandemic is the, for the first time in the lives of all of us, we got to taste a different world, and I call it the biology of work was just different. And what biologists will tell you, is when you fundamentally change the biology of any creature for an extended period of time, the capacity for it to return to doing and living and behaving the way it used to, is often radically, it’s almost impossible to go back to that, because they’ve been reshaped, or they’ve been experiencing different things. And so poor, I feel sorry for a lot of business leaders, because they have a lot of confidence that we know how to deliver value in person, we have no prolonged evidence that we can do this, over an extended period, thrive in a more remote team environment. Okay. So that I’m sort of advocating for what I think is their point of view, like, my jobs on the line, as an executive, I know I can deliver when we’re all together, I don’t know, that we can deliver when we’re apart for an extended period. And I don’t know the long term implications for teamwork, trust, and culture. And so get back in here, people, you know, and and there’s, I’m sad. And I’m surprised by some of the leadership decisions on this one because as you point out, Rolando and Dave, we have more and more organizations that have seen a rise in profits a rise in market share a rise in, you know, creativity and innovation during the pandemic. Absolutely. So, why they’re deciding to go, oh, no, that was just a moment in time, like, we were just sort of surviving, we don’t feel we want to operate like that going forward. Everyone get back in here. And to me, it’s a real missed opportunity, because any consulting firm in the world will tell you right now, that agility, and adaptability is the superpower of the future, right? 100%. All these models we’ve been using, are all built around consistency, reliability, and predictability. But that is not a good strategy in a world that’s less and less predictable. And it’s more about how do I thrive in uncertainty and instability? And that’s why I’m really sad to see so many people throw in the towel so quickly,
Rolando Rosas 13:16
right? And you know, what, what, what would you say that, if I were to paraphrase a little bit more, you’re saying we don’t really have muscle memory, right, I’m going to use a sports term. We don’t have muscle memory for that, right? As a society, on a big scale on on scale, this was already going on. On a smaller scale, some upper level managers were doing remote work, maybe some executives taking time off or traveling, they did some remote work, but filtering it down to the entry level worker, even down to the call center worker that’s working remotely. And then long period of time, that is a new concept. But I want to I want to take what you just said about profitability. I want to bring out somebody that does work with 56 companies. He recently had an interview. And he had this to say about profitably go ahead, and or he roll that
Speaker 6 14:09
I have 54 companies in almost every state in almost every sector, we now know what the percentages is just under 40% are never coming back to the office, I was very fortunate in a portfolio basis to make 15% free cash flow pre tax. Today, that same portfolio post pandemic with 40% of the staff working remotely all around the world is going to do 17 and a half percent free cash. That’s a 20% increase in free cash flow. So you can’t tell me this doesn’t work. In fact, I want to do more of this because I’m reducing my cost of real estate.
Rolando Rosas 14:49
Now, this is a guy who’s a shark, right, Mr. Wonderful. This is a numbers guy. This is a venture guy. This is a VC guy. This is a guy that counts every And he in his organization? What does he know that others don’t quite see the same way.
Steve Cadigan 15:07
What’s interesting about him in particular Rolando is that if you had, if we go deeper into clips about him talking about this during the pandemic, he was hauled out, he was not absolutely, absolutely at all. And then he had a couple of big things that happened to him that really reshaped his thinking, I think, which is, he hired a CFO, who we’d never met, hired this, this woman, remotely. And she starts getting on boarded and figuring it out, and so forth. And I think what he sees is, and he’s got the good fortune of having a diverse portfolio, and also struggling with recruiting and retention concerns, a lot of his team members, were saying, I’m not coming back. So see you later. And he said, Whoa, why? And they’re saying, because I want, I tasted that flexibility in my life. And I tasted being home when my kids get home from school, or I tasted not having that commute. And my life is more productive. And this is where I’m trying to help both parties in this conversation, talks about the same thing, because businesses are saying, we think you’re more productive at work when you’re in the office. And I think candidates and employees are saying, No, I’m more productive at home. But I think what they’re really saying candidates and employees is my life is more productive, when I’m home, right? And I can blend it and you’re making as much money if not more, as Larry says, In this new realm. Why are you so loath to give that, you know, hang on to that? Why do you want to give that up so quickly? And I don’t have you know, any and every organization is facing a different metric with that, you know, I do believe having been at LinkedIn for some crazy hypergrowth years, I struggle to see when you’re going through some really hard times, and you’ve got massive competitors coming at you really quickly. I’m struggling to see how you can innovate and create and build teams, when you’re in a battle for market share, or to get your feet on the ground and stand up a company. I’m struggling to see how you can do that when people aren’t together a lot, you know. And so, in different phases in different evolutions, I think there may be a requirement. But what’s also interesting about O’Leary’s portfolio is I don’t think he had a lot of new organizations that were growing and hiring a ton of people. He had incumbent teams that had been around a while. And that’s a very different dynamic when you’ve got a group of people that was together, why
Rolando Rosas 17:46
is that? Have what why? You know, if you have an incumbent group that’s been around, what’s difference, you know, they’re they’re people at the end of the day. But so tell us, what’s the difference? Yeah,
Steve Cadigan 17:55
I think the difference is, if you went if you were together and went hybrid, versus you were together, when hybrid and you hired a bunch of new people, I think you’ve got the muscle memory, because you’ve been together, you sort of know what the culture is, you know, what the drill is, you have the trust and rapport. But when you’ve got an organization that has grown a lot during the pandemic, you’ve onboard a lot of new people, they don’t know, quote, the way or the culture in the same way. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But it’s a different dynamic. It we all approached this remote work from a different perspective, some teams had been together a long time some teams were growing. And there was very different dynamics, I think that are touching that. So it’s not a, you know, this discussion of hybrid isn’t so simple, right? I put it like this, if you want to talk about hybrid as a category. It’s like going to a restaurant and the waiter says, Can I take your order? And you say, yeah, like some food? And the waiter, waiter waitress, like you want some food? Yeah, knew that. Do you want cold food? Hot food, fresh food, vegan food, meat food, like what do you want? So hybrid is what is hybrid? You know, what is remote? Is it one day a week to this week, three days a week is it we’re meeting in an office, we’re meeting in a remote place where you know, getting to eat, like, what teams are coming in what teams are coming in is such a complex notion that it definitely
Rolando Rosas 19:14
one size doesn’t fit all in this in this space of hybrid and remote work, because the dynamics are different in every organization, when I worked for Altria, a fortune 100 company, and we were remote from the moment you started working in all 5000 salespeople in the organization, including district managers, they were also all remote in 1997 Procter and Gamble, similar dynamics Xerox similar dynamics, and to some extent, IBM and all around the same time because I remember my boss at that time, they plucked him in from Procter and Gamble and he told us Yeah, it was just working in my basement. That’s how we rolled and then some organization And like you said, they already had this muscle memory, it’s been part of their DNA. So moving into fully remote or May, or extending it further into the accounting department into the logistics. And so they’re shipping into all different pieces organization. Probably not a heavy lift. But certainly something unique, I think is happening on the tech sector. So I did, I dug in a little bit more just to do a little bit more research, and I wanted to be prepared for you today. So I’d looked at some of the better known companies today that are really enforcing. When returned to Office, they’re making a stance on this. Google. And in in 2020, not too long ago, they announced and this is kind of in your backyard of San Jose, downtown mixed use campus. Facebook, right in Menlo Park, the willow campus announced in 2017, Amazon HQ two, which is literally kind of in our my backyard here in Virginia, announced in 2018, they have only completed phase one, phase two is on pause because of the current situation, JP Morgan. In 2018, they announced to 70 Park Avenue headquartered in New York City, it’s going to be one of the tallest buildings in New York scheduled to open in 2015. Apple, also kind of in your backyard Cupertino offices, beautiful offices that are I believe those have been already open and in 2020, Twitter with their lease of 1330. Broadway, I would love to hear your perspective on this. How much of an impact is the actual commercial real estate factor? When thinking about this, if you’re sitting down and you’re stuck, or you’re the CEO of Google, or Tim Cook and saying, you know, we put in a couple buildings, that building that that JP Morgan, by the way, is building estimated at $3 billion?
Steve Cadigan 22:01
Yeah, put Salesforce on that list, too. They built that huge tower.
Rolando Rosas 22:06
Exactly how much of this is actually weighing in in a decision and saying, let’s bring them back in. versus, you know what, like, Kevin, we made 20% more profit margin. I’d be a dummy not to want to make more money.
Steve Cadigan 22:22
You know, I don’t think it is huge, but I don’t think we can also ignore is interesting. So I was with Cisco Systems before the.com. bubble burst. This is like 99 2000 2001, I started in 98. At the time, Cisco was one of the largest commercial land owners with about 40,000 people before we let go a whole bunch of people in the.com bubble burst. And the lease of all those buildings turned into be an albatross for us. We got stuck with that. And that after the.com bubble burst, it went to more of a leasing strategy versus own the real estate strategy. I think all the companies that you listed, fundamentally appreciate as much as any industry, if you will, if you want to put them in an industry technology industry, that this is all about talent, if you want to win whatever markets they’re all playing in. It’s all about talent. And so that is the key consideration. And I think what they’re more thinking through is how do we optimize the creativity and innovative capacity of that talent? More that’s driving more of the decision, then a real estate insurance, real estate costs, write it, I also want to throw in something that is invisible and not people are not talking about a lot that we need to sort of put on the table. And that is I promise you, the mayor of San Jose, the mayor of San Francisco, are begging these companies, please, please. You got to bring your people back. Our restaurants are dying. Our public infrastructure of you know, buses and metros and trains are getting slaughtered. No one’s paying money to ride these things. You know, the vitality of our city it you know, infrastructure is crumbling, because we don’t have people coming in here spending money on dry cleaners, on restaurants, on all the infrastructure. They’re begging these leaders, because, you know, cities weren’t built for this. And the tax base is San Francisco, which I pay a lot of attention to, because it’s just around the corner here. Oh, yeah. It’s anticipated that they are going to have a loss of payroll tax revenue, which is driven by how many people working in the city run. You owe the city a certain small payroll tax, somewhere between three quarters of a billion and a billion dollars shortfall. Okay, that’s material. In the last two years 20% of the restaurants in San Francisco have just disappeared. Gone.
Rolando Rosas 24:56
Yeah. Yep. You know, Professor Nick Bloom would concur with but this is one of the points he mentioned to me during my conversation with him recently is that the big losers right now are mass transit, municipalities and commercial real estate, those three. But those can change depending on what, what organizations and municipalities decided to do, because they’re all built around having a city center, where a lot of office and a lot of office space and people come in, right, just like you said, payroll taxes. And we’re at an inflection point, when he mentioned to me, he said, roughly the same numbers you’ve just mentioned, 20 to 30%, are never going back. People that are living in in Greenwich, Connecticut, are not going to go back into the city, people that are living in Long Island are not going back into city, people that live around New Jersey are not going back into the city. And so if you don’t have to do that daily, one hour commute from any of these points around New York City, I would imagine the same as in the Bay Area, right? People making that commute on barked, and driving, and all the rest are taking ferries. They’re not want to do it, Steve. And what I want to share with you is what the mayor of New York City recently announced that he’s doing in order to change direction to city. And I’m hoping that more mayor’s take a cue from this, go ahead and queue that up, Ori
Speaker 7 26:20
empty office space we have sitting idly by with what ready and willing participants to develop the housing and we are in the way while it’s time to get out of the way. So we can turn these office cubicles into nice living quarters so that we can address the housing crisis we have.
Rolando Rosas 26:43
Right? And so this is this is exactly what you’re talking about, Steve, I’m sure I’m just like you said, I’m sure the pressure is great from folks like the mayor of New York City, and others, hey, you got to try to bring the people back so that our restaurants can thrive, or people can be here. Obviously the tax is one thing. And he goes on to say oh, we got to another clip. Okay, go ahead and show that clip. And then we’ll we’ll have a back and forth after this other one, go ahead or roll that. Bill you
Speaker 7 27:17
square feet of office space. This is roughly the size of the entire city of Philadelphia. That’s so much real estate we’re talking it will allow us to create 20,000 new homes enough to house 40,000 New Yorkers.
Rolando Rosas 27:38
Now, this is not tiny. This is a big number 40,000 people, I think he said 136 million. Is that Is that right? That I think I heard him say square feet that roughly the city size of Philadelphia. This is the kind of innovation that more cities and towns need. The people that are on the suburbs are not everybody’s going back. Let’s put those places have to work back in the suburbs. At the same time, city centers can redevelop city centers can thrive, we got to then do something about all that empty office space. What do you think about that, Steve?
Steve Cadigan 28:17
I think this is the magnitude of difficulty for cities to do this. And the cost is extreme. And it’s also a sort of a one way path to so I was in Calgary and Toronto a lot this past sort of spring and summer, they’re going through a massive urban revitalization. And the problem they have is the same problem New York’s gonna have same problem San Francisco is going to have his buildings, windows are on the outside, and all the bathrooms are on the inside. And if they’re every city has got building codes that said you that say you need to have a certain amount of Windows and for a living space, okay, people to you know, to meet the standard of this. These are proper living quarters. And so they’ve almost got a tunnel a hole in the middle of these buildings to have light and, and sunshine capacity to sort of come in. And the reconfigurability is it’s not trivial.
Rolando Rosas 29:20
It’s not easy. Yep. Yep. And going
Steve Cadigan 29:24
all the infrastructure like things like daycare centers, and things like open space and non toxic parks that are nowhere near gasoline and underground storage, you know, tanks of toxic stuff, like, that’s really hard to do. You know, my mom opened daycare centers and help cities and urban centers with this and she’s like, Steve, you don’t understand all the standards that are for child safety and all these other things. So it’s a great idea. I think they don’t have they don’t have a choice. But if you reconfigure all those offices, you’re taking a bet that work in companies are We’re not going to come back to the same degree. Are you ready to do that right now? Are you ready to do that as a city? Because that means that all your revenue is coming more from businesses and commercial enterprises than they are from residences. Are you ready to do that? At the scale some of these people are doing what’s the right mix? That’s it’s like,
Rolando Rosas 30:18
you know, what choices you have? I think right now that the which is what I mean, in this press conference went on for about an hour. What’s the choice? millions of square feet sit empty for years, because right, he goes on to say those people are not coming back 20% of the workforce is not coming back to the city. You could say, well just leave it as is. And I got something else from from from a commercial developer talking even more about this. And like Mr. Wonderful, same thing. He says 40% of his people would head out the door. And he said the number one reason he actually in that Kevin interview, he says the number one reason they would leave is because they feel these employees that are saying they’re not coming back, if forced to the office is because the carbon footprint. This is the one small way. The one small way each individual at his companies has reported they can contribute to reducing the carbon footprint is by not having to jump in their car, Monday through Friday, come into the office. And it’s hard to argue against something like that. But the reality of what you’re saying is correct is Dr. Ellen. Ellen Frank-Miller had mentioned this to me she said the architecture firms that are already retrofitting building already tell her that it’s it very challenging to do can be done. A handful of companies are already been doing it and they stand to benefit from doing that. Because they’re already in a good position to know how to do this, this this know how, but it is a very difficult lift. But if you’re mayor Adams in like the numbers, you’re saying half a billion probably even more in New York City because it’s even more concentrated. Yeah, that you can just leave it empty. Hope for the best. But maybe do something that would could change things around to put people back into affordable housing, which New York is notorious. Imagine trying to live in downtown San Francisco. Forget the problems they’re having with crime right now. But the the cost of living, it’s unaffordable to most people ton attainable. So in the case of Mayor Adams, he says most a lot of those houses are going to be affordable living for people so they could be in the city. Shop spend live play in in downtown without having to commute in from the Tri city area or the Metro County area.
Steve Cadigan 32:34
Yeah, I think it’s interesting, you know, New York and I think technology cities like San Francisco, Seattle, it’s different. Let’s take a look at places like Cleveland, Ohio. So Cleveland sits on Lake Erie. Yeah. Yep. Is there any are there any parks? Are there any restaurants? Are there any, you know, living quarters there? No. Because that was built for the urban center in a lot of the heartland cities of America. To be that’s where industry is. That’s not where you live. And, you know, a great city to look at who’s been trying to sort of thrive since the automobile industry has really struggled is Detroit. Look at what Detroit is in a really interesting story of how they put millions and millions and billions in that. And it wasn’t until Quicken Loans the founder of Quicken Loans is like, Okay, I’m going to really, you know, get creative here with home loans for people and we’re gonna throw, you know, millions and millions of dollars into making this Urban’s really deeply urban environment livable, and they’re starting to see a turn. But not at the not at the pace that I think they would like and the amount of money that cities are going to have to do to sort of become places where people want to live. Is is like you said, it’s a really it’s a complex undertaking.
Rolando Rosas 33:50
We look at look at this, the city centers we have today were built on the backs of World War Two, right? In the 40s. A lot of the infrastructure highways. And so it’s designed so people can live in the suburbs, more space, and what have you. And then we had a flight out of the cities right into the suburbs. It is going to take a reimagining of how we live today. Because people are saying no, I don’t want to live that way. I want to live and work closer or meaningful, less carbon footprint. And so it is going to be a tough slogging on the business side for those companies that have big towers and spent billions of dollars in in putting into the buildings as well as the cities because we’re not in the 40s. And we’re at an inflection point where workers and I think that’s what we’re seeing this year play out. Workers are saying, Look, we contribute to the bottom line. We want to be part of the deal of also sharing in the profits. I think that’s also mixed in here. I am and what I want to share with you is a clip that kind of gets to what I’m just talking about, where there is a disconnect. I think also again this is like Anjuna think there’s the commercial real estate, there’s the workers wanting to be part of the discussion about profitability, because they know they’re contributing to the bottom line. And then there’s this dynamics that’s changing in the shifting of work. And as you would call future work, where you have folks that are used to having an dictating the rules for how employee and employer relations go, and because of that balance, starting to change, they’re snapping back and reacting, something came out today on Twitter, hot off the press, I want you to react because it gets to that issue. Go ahead and roll that Ori.
Speaker 8 35:39
I think the problem that we’ve had is that we’ve, you know, we have people decided they didn’t really want to work so much anymore through COVID. And that has had a massive issue on productivity, you know, traders have definitely pulled back on productivity, you know, they they have been paid up paid a lot to do not too much in the last few years. And we need to see that change, we need to see unemployment rise, unemployment has to jump 40 50%, in my view, we need to see pain in the economy, we need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around, when there is a there’s been a systematic change where employees feel the employer is extremely lucky to have them, as opposed to the other way around. So it’s a dynamic that has to change, we’ve got to kill that attitude. And that has to come through hurting the economy, which is what the whole global the world is trying to do. The governments around the world are trying to increase unemployment, to get that to some sort of normality. And we’re seeing it I think every employer now is seeing it. I mean, there is definitely massive layoffs going off. And people might not be talking about it. But people are definitely laying people off. And we’re starting to see less arrogance in the employment market. And that has to continue, because that will cascade across the cost balance.
Rolando Rosas 36:51
I say? He says, Yeah, but I say what, what, what, what?
Steve Cadigan 36:57
What are you just need to call my financial advisor to make sure that we are investing in nothing that that guy has any part of like, Who is that guy?
Rolando Rosas 37:06
Who is CEO of a property development company? Tim Gerner? And what? I was stupefied when I was sent this this morning, because okay, you’re saying the thing out loud, that maybe we thought was in the back of the mind of some CEOs, not all right, some. But the fact that that he maybe fundamentally doesn’t even understand that a 50% unemployment rate would take us back to depression, era unemployment, which is no good for anybody, nobody wins, when you try to maybe intentionally inflict pain. And to me, it just gets to this argument that’s wrapped up in this remote work, which is employer employee relations, maybe there’s some shifting of, of work of power of momentum in the favor of workers that want to live and work. I mean, workers wonder where work where their work, there’s some work fulfillment, and you’re talking about inflicting pain via an unemployment rate, that would completely create a catastrophic situation for every single one of his properties, including in that 50% know, nothing would get done, people would have soup lines, like back into depression, that’s when when we last saw unemployment at those rates.
Steve Cadigan 38:33
Throwing furniture over there, he really got to you. Listen, I think what we saw in that small clip, and again, we don’t have the full context of other things he may have said before, after, and it’s definitely something that we can get all excited and aroused about. But listen, what I took from his tone, is that he’s taking no responsibility for the ownership of motivating, exciting and getting his employees and managing his people, oh, they’re just a bunch of lazy, they’ll stop working, like you have no control over that, like you have no responsibility for presenting an environment where they can thrive. And you have no appreciation for other things that may be driving their concerns around there, maybe they’re not worth spending time working for you because you don’t really care about them. And they’re worried about their safety their parents. So I think that is a really a showcase of really sad leadership, that sort of underscores so when he said that right up front is like, Okay, anything else you say, is really not not that interesting to me because you are completely abdicating yourself or any ownership of showing any leadership here or responsibility. You know, he didn’t say, hey, it’s on us to be places where people want to be and people want to deliver their best work. It’s on us to understand wellness revolution that, you know, people are experiencing all kinds of mental challenges and stressors that you know, we need to be mindful of, and he’s taking solace In, I can only lead when people are desperate. And that’s sad to me. And I don’t believe I don’t believe what he’s saying at all around his forecast, or about his model of leadership. And, and I do agree with you. But I think there are leaders that think like that, because they’re afraid, they’ve never had to learn that you can listen, I’ve worked in technology, you guys have worked in technology, you will not hire anyone, if you lead like that, in a tech company
Rolando Rosas 40:28
that likes to run into that building and work for that guy.
Steve Cadigan 40:32
You might be able to, in real estate, my sister, who’s written, she’s worked for a bunch of these commercial real estate companies. And she says, uh, cultures are disastrous, dates, command and control, and you’re lucky to have a job kind of thinking, and like this guy, right? And in a labor constrained marketplace, if that’s the position you want to take, I mean, thank you for giving us the memo, that that’s what you’re all about. Now, I decide not to work for you, you know. So thank you.
Dave Kelly 41:01
In the end, if you were that type of individual that appreciated that type of leadership, then what what type of an employee? Are you really, you know, I have a question, you know, for these organizations we had kind of pointed out that are, you know, have these mandates for return to work, and the internal conversations that we’re having our, you know, employees are going to choose to either stay or find an opportunity for them that lends them back to a better work, a better work fit. Have there have been employees, to the numbers that people might be concerned about leaving these organizations, as they’re demanding this return to work? Are you seeing an exodus of employees choosing to leave and find other opportunities?
Steve Cadigan 41:44
100% 100% Yeah, yeah. And this is largely in the knowledge worker and advanced knowledge worker community. Here’s the other thing that we’re also seeing guys in a in it needs to be included in our conversation, more senior talent, technical talent is going independent, at a rate we’ve never seen before. Why? Because they can, I want to work for the greatest boss ever had the guy in the mirror that sort of want to work for law. And so and they can and all the proliferation of platforms like Upwork, that provide you the ability to, you know, find benefits, find work, market yourself, do your accounting for you. There’s so many more of those right now. That it’s not just an employer employee, the independence opportunity is also shrinking the available employees for these employers. So I don’t know what that would that dude’s talking about. The other thing that’s really interesting, and we talked about this a few times, over the last few months, Rolando, which is, one thing that has really we don’t understand the long term implications of is when the pandemic was full on for about, let’s say, two years, the amount of knowledge worker emigration around the world went to zero. In the United States, on a normal pre pandemic year, we had anywhere between 1.2 to 1.8 million legal immigrant knowledge workers coming into our economy that went to zero for for almost every country,
Rolando Rosas 43:22
and they shut the borders down, basically, that’s right, borders were
Steve Cadigan 43:25
closed. And so that lack of infusion, combined with in America, fewer people going to college, fewer people majoring in the same things, people being really scared by the student loan debt, you know, we have into the workforce, the ripple effects, I call it in my book, The aftershocks of COVID-19. We’re still, you know, we’re not through the woods by any means. We’re starting to see more and more ripple effects of this. And you add to it, the pandemic, sort of changing psychology of like, Why do I work? Like we’re asking this question we never asked before, like, why am I working? Why do I work five days? Why isn’t it four? Why isn’t it three? Every company I know that’s gone hybrid? Every company will tell you don’t see anyone Monday and Friday, but they’re in there Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, it’s just feel the we’re voting buyer behavior that that’s what we want. We want a little more breadth and a little more time. And we’re not seeing a lowering in overall productivity from the stats that I’m seeing. Right? No,
Rolando Rosas 44:33
you’re right, you’re right. And speaking of stats, I want to bring some stats to the table. So that folks that are listening to this because my goal here Steve is to take the information you have Empower managers, empower workers to go to their boss or their management, or the C suite and say, Hey, guys, this is what is out there. These are the numbers. This is the evidence. This is the research that you will get us better retention that will make the bottom line better. It is going to take some new muscle memory for some organizations, but it can be done. And those organizations that are already doing it, like Kevin’s organization, and many, many others are going to win. So how do we bring that playbook here. And that’s what I want to do. So let me give some numbers and some stats. There was a study from Ergotron of 1000, full time workers. And what they found is that a total of 56% of employed cited mental health improvements, better work life balance, and more physical activity as a result of being able to do remote working, because they have more time for themselves. In my conversation with Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller. She said to me, and I had not heard this before, but she is she’s a scientist and studies, numbers and the impact on management. And what she said to me. When employees are happy, this kind of I’m going to make the conversation really simple. When employees are happy, they self report, they’re happy, they’ll the arc of that you can directly connect it statistically and politically to higher stock prices proven. This is proven. So if you have 90% of employees, like in a Fujitsu study we found, they say in this case, it was 74 said the office was the place to get work done. That was the preferred, that went down to 15% during the pandemic, because people said no, I get better work done, in at home, at home, in my home office. So if employees are saying that, and then you get all this benefits, like better mental health, better work life balance, being being being more physically active, theoretically happier employees. The bottom line, like Kevin says, improves, and therefore, you can measure that in the stock price. And she said to me, you can measure it, and you can see it, because that’s what all the studies are saying. Even if you go further back in time before the pandemic, I find that just
Steve Cadigan 47:15
Yeah, and I think there’s another dimension to this too, which I’m trying to help leaders get more comfortable with. And that is cognitive science. behavioral scientists are telling us and showing us and we have more and more research to suggest that diversity of work, and more sleep really drives a really greater capacity to impact and create. And so I think we’ve we’ve learned this a lot in the last five plus years around more sleep is you know, greater focus and greater ability to do more in a shorter period of time. But what we’re, what we I think need to learn is this notion of diversity of work and experiences really contributing in meaningful ways to people making an impact. And that is good in a world where people are moving around, and they’re changing roles a lot in something more more people are having dual roles, if you will, in organizations. So you know that I think the the points you make a really well taken, but I also think we need to get comfortable that hey, just because things are a little bit crazy, doesn’t mean it’s all bad. You know?
Rolando Rosas 48:25
Right? No, I agree. Agreed. You know, we had on a guest recently Rachel Cottam, props, a big props of Rachel, again, she’s in the trenches, so to speak, when it comes to this issue around diversity, and inclusion. And she pointed out that when it comes to remote work, your workforce gets diverse immediately, because now there’s a bias. And she she cited some numbers around when you’re in person in your hiring, your bias is towards hiring people that are good looking, they’re attractive, they’re taller, they’re fitter, if all they’re looking at is that square box, right? That you’re in that Dave’s in them, and they can’t tell if I’m five foot 10, or six foot five. And she said that there’s actually a penalty, I think it was $1,000 per year for males, if you’re below the standard height, so if you’re five foot five,
Steve Cadigan 49:24
by foot, and like a penalty as in, you’re not going to earn as much exactly every year,
Rolando Rosas 49:29
every year. And for women, I can’t remember the the number of Dave Do you recall the 3000 or 4000 a year when their BMI, their body mass index was beyond the norm. So we don’t remember the number but yeah, they were tied
Dave Kelly 49:48
together.
Rolando Rosas 49:49
Yes. So for women, it’s a greater penalty. So over the course of a guy who’s five foot five, five foot six, five foot seven because you’re below the average five foot eight, even You’re going to earn less, when you have to do in person hiring, because of the biases that are built in with hiring, whereas remotely doing it virtually dead does away with that you can’t tell if somebody’s six foot five, you can’t tell if somebody is overweight, when they’re just looking at a box of your face and shoulders. And so it has an effect of diversifying the workforce for women, for minorities, for folks with disabilities, because they can set up an environment that is exactly tailored to them. So if they have a disability, their environment at home is going to be set up so that they can work more efficiently set up so they can get to the bathroom or whatever the challenge that they’re trying to overcome. Whereas in an office, that office environments not really made for that.
Steve Cadigan 50:49
Yeah. And you know, technology, especially in the last year is facilitating, leveling the playing field, for some friends of mine that have ADHD, or mild forms of dyslexia. I can go to Chet GPT, and say, this is kind of what I want to communicate, and I’m really not a good writer, can you, you know, help me express this. And that is wonderful. Right? It is advantage, people now have resources and tools to really give them an advantage, right? And college students are figuring out how to leverage check. In college professors are like, how do I, you know, make sure that the work was really done here. And it’s putting pressure on things like thinking about this, like, what do we what are we teaching? Now? Because if I can find an answer to a question in a second, you know, versus like, when I went to college, you have to go to the stacks and find something and hunted down and find microfiche?
Rolando Rosas 51:44
Yeah, you had to go to it? Was it in the library, even then you have ordered the book from a different library to bring it in?
Steve Cadigan 51:52
So what do I need to learn? Because I can find facts in a second? You know, what’s worth me learning? And I think it’s, you know, comes down to growth mindset and curiosity and desire to solve complicated things. And also differentiating yourself from a robot or artificial intelligence is all the human traits that that we have. But I mean, it’s all these things we’re talking about. I mean, it just is a whole tidal wave of new challenges. I really feel for leaders, I was at a conference in British Columbia two days ago, for non technology company businesses, talking retail grocery stores, mining, gasoline, refinery organizations, and they’re just deer in the headlights. And so and the great question, I love asking leaders like this, and it’s more sort of, I think we need to recognize we have a problem before you start looking me saying help us with answers. The question I asked him was, do you think the proliferation of new industries is going to slow down? We have more new industries in the last 10 years than any 10 year period in history? Do you think we’re gonna have fewer in the future? And they said, Nope. I said, Okay, what are those new industries, their new jobs, their new careers, their new career paths, there’s new ways that people can earn a living that didn’t exist before. Then I said, are you all experiencing higher turnover now than you’ve ever had? Yes, everyone. I said, Okay, so we can talk about why you can get all salty about the young generation. But let me ask you a bigger question. Do you think that is going to slow down in the future? Do you think in the future people are going to stay longer? And they said, No, absolutely not? I said, So you not a single person in a room of 400. People said, oh, yeah, people are going to stay longer in the future. I said, so those two facts, more new industries and more new career paths, and people are going to continue to leave faster said, How many of you have adjusted your talent strategy to expect people are going to stay shorter? Has anybody in here, not a single person? And that’s when they started looking at their shoelaces? Right, and so this is where I have gravitas for all those leaders that are struggling, because there’s no benchmark to Haven Rolando for this. There’s no moment in time where we did 180 degree turn. And there’s no, you know, handbook,
Rolando Rosas 54:09
or we’re not we’re not there. We weren’t around in I wasn’t around, you’re in the 40s when this happened to our industry, you know, the the industrial revolution changed the, you know, the whole face of this country. You know, maps were created, highways were created suburbs were created. Jobs shifted from agricultural based manual labor to to building cars, Henry Ford, you know, it’s a lot of precedent. It’s just that you and I weren’t around to be like this, the playbook we use when we were at Ford, and we set up the factory assembly line, right, right. And it required new talent that was probably used to working on horse and buggies or working on the farm. And Henry Ford decided I’m going to make an assembly line and by the way, I’m going to pay them enough that they can buy my cars. Right. And so I think it does require hire some some brave bravery on the part like you’re saying some curiosity, hey, look, there are things that are happening outside of our industry. And you got to be able to look at those things like, Oh, wait, this is happening here, this, this is going to impact you, you’re we’re not on an island companies are no longer on an island, we’re a global, we’re connected are interconnected, intertwined. And I think that leaders that understand that are going to come out on top, their company is going to thrive, they’re going to be able to retain people, that means more more to the bottom line. And I think they’re going to be able to go into the future, or get closer to the finish line. If I were to use that analogy, they’re gonna be closer to the finish line than those that are, like you said, looking at their shoes and not liking what I do. Because you can take action, at least do something we’re going to talk we’re going to start let’s put a program in place. Let’s get our people together. We’re going to, we’re going to figure this out. Like you told me at LinkedIn, you guys had no how many endless meetings. So you figured out the strategy for meetings, right? It takes that curiosity that let’s put people together. But you say, You know what, I don’t know what the future looks like. But I know what the past look like. Let’s bring everybody back in. I don’t know how long that’s going to hold well, for an organization that take that position.
Steve Cadigan 56:13
Yeah, Day falls on your mind. Yeah. So
Dave Kelly 56:15
back to your point, Steve. So if you if you’re talking to people about you know, how they have changed, how they’ve changed, recruitment and retention. I’ve seen, I’ve seen some interesting change my son, my son is 17 years old, he has a part time job at Starbucks. He’s worked there for about two, three years now. When I was 17 years old, I had my hourly job. And that was it. There was no vacation time, there was no benefits, it was minimum wage, you know, maybe a couple of quarters, you know, higher than that. But I feel that there might have been a change that Starbucks has done, for example, he’s in this is good and bad. He’s making as much hourly, as some teachers are making some some teachers straight out of college, he does get health benefits. He’s 17 years old, they are offering benefits, including, like mental health type benefits, you know,
Steve Cadigan 57:18
how many hours? How many hours a week? Is he working? Money? 20? Okay, yeah, yeah, minimum to be eligible for Starbucks.
Dave Kelly 57:26
So they’re giving him time off, you don’t, he’s telling me he’s like, look how much time I’ve accrued for sick time. I’m like, You’re a part time worker, that’s great. They treat you well. Other benefits included, he said, When I’m a teen Dad, I’m eligible to enroll for the 401k. And I am like, wow, these, it’s, I see the downside on your on the flip side of the coin. But to watch to see a 17 year old working in, he is happy, he feels respected, he’s shoot, they even give the south they give their employees free Spotify, you know, so like, they’re they are paying attention to some things for recruitment and, and retention. And I’m, maybe maybe Starbucks isn’t an anomaly, because they’re just so massive, you know, I can see where we’re smaller organizations, especially in retail would struggle with that. But would you agree that that’s kind of a change where, you know, 10 years ago that might not have been happening within that space?
Steve Cadigan 58:29
Yeah, what I love about Starbucks, and I don’t know if they are one of the ones but many people before the pandemic, like the size of Starbucks, that have many hourly workers had hundreds of lobbyists in Washington, DC, arguing for lower minimum wage. Like we’re trying to keep that as low as possible, right. And those jobs disappeared when the people stopped, were going to work for these frontline roles. And now there’s a lot more creativity I love. I didn’t know about the Spotify free Spotify, that’s genius. That is just genius. Like, what benefit can we give the causes very little that we can negotiate with Spotify at scale for a really discounted rate, that’s going to cost Spotify, nothing to give away few more licenses. And it’s going to be a really cool benefit. That’s going to be a little stickier to keep our people there. But what I also love is like your son’s seeing all you know how a company is treating people, right? And that he’s going to have a benchmark when he goes to a different place. And he’s treated differently, right. That’s such a great anchor, my eldest son had a really interesting experience. I needed a few tiktoks about it that got a lot of people responding. He had two jobs that he was interviewing for. And this is his his first experience working okay, now it took me till he was a sophomore in college to get him sort of in the workforce, but he wanted a summer job he’s got a car once the papers ghastly okay. So he interviews two places one place says we’d like to make you an offer. Here’s the offer, and you have a week to let us know. Okay. After two days, they called and said, What’s your decision? And he says, Well, I haven’t decided yet. And they said, Well, why haven’t you decide? And he said, Because you said I had a week, and I’m looking at some other opportunities. And they said to him ready for this? Well, you know, we can pull that off for any time if we want. And my son’s thinking, you told me a week, I’m being honest with you telling you, I’m just looking for the best for me and my summer earnings here. And now you’re threatening me. And that was the job he wanted. The other job was like, Hey, we like you. It was with a retail company. He was going to be in the back offices, unpacking boxes, stacking shelves, and filling out in the floor. If they were understaffed. He took that job. Because he was so turned off by how the recruiter tried to strong arm him. No. And it was a, I told him like, listen, that’s a great lesson for you. You know, and by the way, that recruiter might not even be an employee, they might just be a contractor. But, but I think this is emblematic of the experiences that a competitive environment is creating for people, particularly in frontline. I love that example of your son Dave. And my son, you know, he had a good a good experience. And you know, he was very flexible. A lot of times someone was sick, they call him say, Hey, can you give me he’s like, Yeah, sure. What else am I gonna do? Go to the gym or play pay up hoops? And my friends? Like, sure I’ll go. And they said, Well, you did tell them, you’re a college student, and you’re going back, right? In the fall? He goes, Yeah, I told him that. So and there we go with it. And he had this huge employee discount to which he, he let us use, which was awesome. But I think it’s, it’s, you know, I go to his university and say, How are you preparing students for this future? Right now? Like, how are you thinking about that? Are you you know, what are you preparing them for? Is it working for a company or working independent? Or what are you thinking? And I think they’re, they’re facing as many challenges as if, if not more than businesses and cities right now, think about that.
Rolando Rosas 1:02:07
The the landscape and need for workers that have changed, I remember going to college, I graduated in 9296. I felt coming out, I wasn’t prepared for work. I, I came away with some skills, I knew how to write better, I knew a little bit more about critical thinking. I worked in teams that you were talking about were built for teams, right working inside of teams. And I felt like I understood how to work with people that are different than myself, which was where I went and we had a lot of international students and people that are law look different. So not everybody thinks the same. We’re not all a homogeneous group. But outside of that, you know, the workplace is a totally different thing. The rules, the expectations, how do you move up? You know, corporate ladder type stuff? Where should the preparation for that is? wasn’t anywhere in any class?
Steve Cadigan 1:03:03
Yeah. Yeah, I I spend a lot of time with my alma mater for grad school USF helping prepare students for things that no school really helps them with, which is, how do you deal with a boss that you don’t get along with? How do you deal with it? Well, my first lesson, in in my first job was that I was working so hard to get stuff done. And I was the youngest on the team, that people were in there like late 20s, to mid 40s, that the rest of the team took me out to lunch one day, and they said, If you don’t slow down, he will hurt you. Okay? You make him look bad. Because you’re making us look bad. And I’m like, what, I’m just trying to do my best. Are you all trying to do your best? And they’re like, Yeah, but you know, we didn’t go to college. And you did. And it’s not fair. So I said, Okay, I can’t slow down. So what I’m going to do is, I’m going to help you learn my tricks that I knew how to, you know, short circuit this or short circuit that. And so, you know, but these, there’s so many, there’s actually a business, there’s a woman named Ali denzinger, she would be really cool to have on your show. She built an entire company that teaches you all the things around how to handle a company holiday party, how to ask for a raise, how to deal with a difficult colleague, how to, you know, deal with a person in the staff meeting that’s always talking over you. All those things that you’re presented with that you’re not ready for, you know, let me
Rolando Rosas 1:04:34
let me ask you about an example. This happened to me. This is also a war story from corporate America. If I were to take a page out of your playbook, right. All right. You call the stories from corporate right. I’ve call it a war story from corporate. So I was working at Altria. I had just gotten promoted, used to live in Minneapolis, got relocated to Houston gave me a package. Promise started moving up the corporate ladder. First day on the job. New boss says And I had interviewed with him prior to moving. So I thought, okay, good. Like yourself. I was the youngest in that department. Everybody else was a good 20 plus years older than everybody. Firstly, on the job ba says to me, you know, everything you’ve learned in Minnesota, I’m not going to use that here. So don’t worry about that. Because that’s completely useless. And we’re going to run it the way I call it. And I thought, Man, why did you hire me for? If you knew what my pedigree was what I did over there, he had all access to all the records, right? All the HR, everything else, all the numbers, all the metrics, it’s all there. Now you’re telling me I’ve got to not use that stuff here. For fear. I think now that I’m much older, for fear that I would take his job, right. But here’s what I say to that. I didn’t want his job. I wanted his boss’s job, his job. But what how would you react to that? Steve, you know, you’ve somebody in HR, if somebody came to you with that story? What would you say?
Steve Cadigan 1:06:03
Yeah, that’s a tough one. And is when you have a combination of someone who has power and insecurity, that’s very, very dangerous. It’s a very dangerous place to play. What I would have done, what I would suggest to you was, have you talked to other people that have worked with this person for a period of time? Or who used to work for them? And maybe they can give you some insight on how to influence that? I would say who who does that person listen to, to try to help. And then I would say, Mike, my cue for you would be to say, and this happens a lot, like, listen to the quality of leadership in the world is pretty, pretty lame, for I have very high standards, okay? So but that’s an opportunity for you to shape that person to be the leader that you want. So that you say, Listen, I know, I may threaten you, I may make you feel uncomfortable, I have no desire to take your role. But if you help me, I can make you look like a star, you know, you, you know, let’s work together on this you benefit I benefit, or you put me in that little corner, it’s not going to end well for either of us. So which way? Which way do you want to go? Right? That’s where I would have, I would have tried to present some alternatives for you to try to solve it. But also for you to say like I had a friend of mine who was over, I don’t know, fill in the blank, eBay, PayPal, one of those companies. He’s like, Steve, my manager is horrible. She’s She doesn’t know what she’s doing. She’s never meets with me, she talks over me, she doesn’t care what I’m doing. And I said, Why are you Why do you think that she would? Why do you like, and why don’t you tell her what you need, what you want, and what you can do. And you own that, you know, take don’t wait for her to sort of figure it out. Because the company’s not helping her, you know, and they put her in that role. And that’s on the company’s not on her. And if she’s a bad leader, there’s more around the corner, because other people that hired her hired other ones. So you need to figure out is this system that has lots of bad leaders going to work for you? And can you take advantage of that? And if you can, you’re golden. But if you’re going to keep waiting for all these should be really great. Then you’re you know, you’re going to be constantly unhappy. I
Rolando Rosas 1:08:09
love that advice. That is freaking awesome. I wish you were around. I could admit. Problems helped me out. I don’t know what to do. And I really was like, it was like somebody hit and punch me in the head.
Steve Cadigan 1:08:21
I don’t know. And it’s an unexpected thing. Like when my teammates took me to lunch, and I was like, what I was just doing my best like, you guys want to hurt me?
Rolando Rosas 1:08:31
Oh, my goodness. Well, let’s let’s keep it on that light note. I know you’re writing a new book. You gave me a teeny little taste of it. Last time you and I talked on the phone, and I want you to talk about it. You know, what is it? What do you got? What’s going on with the book? What do you have in it? There was a lot of that changed since you started writing the Workquake book? What what’s going on?
Steve Cadigan 1:08:54
Yeah, well, I would love to set aside some time to talk to both of you more and get your input because I think you could provide some good examples from your own experiences. So what I’m trying to do with this next book is help companies and leaders and organizations address a talent supply shortage, okay. And what I’m trying to do is open eyes of leaders to recognize that just because you don’t, you’re not able to find as many people who are qualified with 90% of the skills you need, doesn’t mean that you face an impossible future. And what I tried to do is use my experience from LinkedIn and many experiences since then to show when we were building LinkedIn, which was a new industry, there wasn’t a lot of entrance and trench knowledge around how to build the kind of models that we were building. So we had to put people in roles and opportunities that they’d never been in before that didn’t exist before. And guess what happened? They were fired up. I need to solve something new. You’re giving me a project that I’m not, quote qualified to do. Wow. And what I found in talking to executive after executive is when you ask them, what’s the biggest break in your career arc? It’s always that one time when someone took a bet on me that I wasn’t really ready for, I didn’t think I was ready for I was put into a new circumstance. And I was so excited. And I did better than I thought, and I did better than they thought I would. And I’m trying to help businesses understand that we have to design for that we’ve designed to prohibit that from happening, stay in the same job for a long period of time. So I have confidence, you know how to do it. And I’ve got reliable results, which comes from a good place. But in a world where you can’t find as many qualified people, I think, if we take bets on people, and that’s what Silicon Valley is, think about it. There’s more people in the world, in this geography, where I live right now, doing something they’ve never done before building a new industry, building a new space. And guess what, there’s more innovation, there’s more creativity, there’s higher market value here. There’s more successful firms in the density of this, you know, footprint of geography than anywhere else in the world. So what I’m trying to say is, that’s out of necessity, if you want to build something new, and organizations can really leverage that, you know, in ways and I’m not saying hey, in the surgical center, we need to throw in a bunch of people that don’t know what to do. I’m not I’m not saying that. But in many other places, you can do it. And I was speaking of hospitals, I was with a hospital system a few months ago. And I said, Tell me something you’ve done in the last three years because of the pandemic that forced you to do something you’ve never done before. And they said, Well, Steve, we put new grads in the ICU in the emergency room, we’ve never done that before. And I said how to go. And they said, Well, we had to reengineer onboarding, we had to really give someone a lot more coaching and help. were worried that they would be scared and shocked by the blood and guts that they saw or the trauma they saw. But that’s not what happened. They were so excited that we trusted them to be in this environment. They brought a whole new level of energy to the culture and the team and the lightheartedness that everyone was so motivated to try to coach this new person, because usually people in the ICU and er have all this experience. And all those people never get to coach someone and all the energy of the existing team was raised, because they got to coach someone new. And I said, so. So your lesson is that’s going to work for you longer term, even if we get through the supply shortage. Yeah, it’s really, really great. And that’s like that kind of example, that we need to do. Yeah,
Dave Kelly 1:12:32
that’s really, that’s really awesome.
Rolando Rosas 1:12:36
And you know, what, Steve, you remind me of something that somebody had said to me not too long ago, that the trend for job creator jobs, the roles, because there’s a race to try to get to low cost on everything. The jobs have been dubbed, dumbed down so that anybody could do it. But that said, the detriment to the organization, when you can actually watch what you’re saying, engineer the job, so that it meets what we need. And then you get people in roles that are more satisfied, more fulfilled in the organization benefits from that whole thing, rather than let’s make it so it’s, you know, $8 an hour job. And we dumb it down to that, and nobody wants those jobs anyway. Right. Right.
Steve Cadigan 1:13:21
Right. And I think that gets to the the last part of my book that I want to hammer home here. And I think it’s relevant to our conversation, which is in a supply constrained future of work, every company is going to have to learn how to build talent, not just hire it, you’re not going to find it on the open market. So you got to be a place that’s grown people. And by the way, that’s the number one thing that people tell me they want when they look for new job, one place where I’m gonna grow. And people have always said that, but it’s even more pronounced now in a place where the shelf life of a company maybe is shorter than it’s ever been people getting disrupted tech, new technologies coming in. So don’t promise me a job. Promise me you’re going to make me better for my future. You know, and that’s a that’s a reason why I might stay with you longer.
Rolando Rosas 1:14:08
That is, again, totally worth the future. It can be bright. That’s what I hear you saying. I’m looking forward to that second book. When is it going to hit the shelves? Are you still in the in the writing properly to
Steve Cadigan 1:14:22
say yeah, too early to say? Yeah, yeah, probably. 25 Maybe 2025? Yeah,
Rolando Rosas 1:14:29
that writing process is a bear, right? Yep. Wow, well, keep me informed, keep us informed. I’d love to contribute in any way, shape, or form you need. You know, I’d love to have a call with you on that. Whatever I can tell you. You don’t even have to hesitate to ask. It’s an open invitation. So we’ve been talking to Steve Cadigan super guru coach to Fortune 500 companies, author of Workuake, world renowned speaker, if I can put it that way, and in all workplace issues. Dave, was there something that we left unsaid or a stone that we need to turn before we let Steve go? Listen, I’m
Dave Kelly 1:15:10
looking forward to to your next book. Steve, I think what you’re talking about here is important. I wouldn’t be surprised if right when you think this next book is done, hope nothing else happens where you have to go back to it, because that was an interesting part with Workquake, right. I remember you had saying, You had said that you had basically had it finished, and then the pandemic hit, and now you’d have to revisit that. So with things changing so quickly, you’ll probably there’s always that possibility where you might have to go back and add another chapter.
Steve Cadigan 1:15:42
Yeah, 100 percent agree, Dave. Yeah.
Rolando Rosas 1:15:45
And if you want to nerd out on more Steve Cadigan, we’ve got other episodes as Steve on our circuitloops.com as well as wherever you consume your podcasts, along with other guests like Rachel Cottam that talked about the state of remote work, and be on the lookout for the future conversation with Professor and economist Nick Bloom from Stanford, as well as Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller. So thanks for joining us today. And Dave, and I will see you in those episodes. See you next time.
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