Rolando Rosas 4:19
good for a lot of people. That’s
Derek Gaunt 4:21
pretty good, but it’s not as good as you could be. That’s the key. You know, Nick Saban talking about sports. Nick Saban said it’s human nature to be average, and people are satisfied with status quo. And status quo says 35 40% most people will say, I’m good. Yes, you are making money. You are not making as much money as you should be making. That’s the bottom line. Well,
Rolando Rosas 4:44
who wants to put money on the table and leave it there? I certainly don’t. I would love to go to Vegas with something in my back pocket that says, bet on red 93% of the time, and red is the winner. So let me ask you something that’s probably not so obvious. I want to know you worked with leaders around the world, dealt with hardcore guys that want to do harm. Is it more difficult to negotiate with a toddler than a hostage taker?
Derek Gaunt 5:15
It depends on which end of the telescope you’re looking at the situation from if I were to ask that of a single as a non married law enforcement officer, they would say, No, working with a bad guy is much more difficult. But if I ask a mother or father of three kids under five, they’re probably going to give me a different answer. But regardless of which one of those two situations you’re looking at, you’re dealing with individuals, whether it’s a toddler or a terrorist, who is looking at a situation through a primarily emotional lens, and until you deal with the negative emotions and dynamics from their perspective. Meaningful dialog is not going to take place with you and that toddler or you and that criminal. It’s just not going to happen. You don’t need to walk a mile in their shoes. What you need to do is see through their eyes. And whether it’s a toddler or a criminal, seeing through their eyes doesn’t mean that you agree with them. It doesn’t mean that you necessarily like them. It doesn’t mean that you’re a nice person. It just means that for that moment, you are removing yourself as a psychological threat to the other person that is the barrier to meaningful dialog when the other side views you as a psychological threat, because we are always in survival mode to some degree, throughout every waking moment of the day. And the more intense the threat, the more survival mode we get into, and the more that amygdala fires up. And when that amygdala fires up, whether to toddler or a criminal. What’s supposed to be going on in the prefrontal cortex is not happening because they are in survival mode. And so it’s incumbent upon each of us to mitigate the negative emotions, the negative dynamics that are harbored by the other side before we start talking about goals and objectives before we start talking about ultimate outcomes, before we start explaining, before we start problem solving, we have to take care of the negative emotions and dynamics first, and that’s whether you’re dealing with a toddler or you’re dealing with a terrorist.
Rolando Rosas 7:34
Is that the way you should approach let’s say you’re walking into a room, whether you’re doing this in person, and you’re going to walk in and do a presentation or maybe a negotiation, if you’re that far into a deal with a customer, is address the negative emotion. Maybe you don’t know that there’s a negative emotion, but, oh,
Derek Gaunt 7:54
hold on, Rob, let me stop you there, because that’s conventional wisdom, okay? And it’s faulty thinking, All right,
Rolando Rosas 8:00
so can I? Would you be opposed for me to call you, Professor Gaunt?
Derek Gaunt 8:07
No, I feel compelled to say, No, I’ve been
Rolando Rosas 8:11
doing a little study. So okay, Professor Gaunt, I’ve got a notepad and paper. Please fool
Derek Gaunt 8:15
So you walking into a business pres, or you’re walking into a business meeting, or if you’re down the road a little ways a negotiation, you’re walking into a room, and I don’t care how amicable the conversation has been prior to you walking into that room, you are automatically a threat to them, Because why? Because you have one, if not two, words in your head, and they’re the same two words that the other side has in their head, and those words are I want or I need. And if you walk into a room with me and you want or need something, you are a threat to me, because I know that at the end of this conversation, I may have less of something than what I walked in with. If it’s nothing, more than time you’re walking in for a sales pitch, you’re trying to get in between them and their money. 100% you are a threat to them. And so even if it’s been friendly conversation before you have stepped into the room, when you walk into the room, figuratively speaking, everybody at that table is like this, waiting for you to start throwing blows, okay, and immediately you start to address those negatives. I guarantee you, in the room of six people, 50% if not better of those people are going to have an issue with something that you are going to present, and so it’s incumbent upon you to mitigate those as fast as possible. And the faster that you mitigate those, the more improvement. Occurs in the prefrontal cortex. So when you get to that portion of the conversation where you have to really pitch, you have to really explain, you have to really say what your goal and objective is. You’re giving it to someone who is smarter. Because when you walk into that room, that conference room, where you go to that meeting, the people that you’re engaging are dumb, and what I mean by that is that their ability to process is being impeded by the negative emotions and dynamics. I think it was Steve acre said that the human brain works up to 31% better when it’s in the positive state. What does that mean for you walking in I’ve got to put them in a positive state as fast as possible.
Rolando Rosas 10:41
How do you do that? So you hit that. You’ve hidden. You’ve hit like the the magic button, beep. All right, I got to put them in a positive state. I can’t assume that they’re all going to be flowers and roses, because we’ve had a decent conversation prior for me to walking in the room. What’s the thing that you say you you’re there. They’re looking at you. They say, Derek, okay, talk. What do you start with? What’s the opening line from your one of
Derek Gaunt 11:03
the first things that I say to them is this is probably the last meeting that you wanted to attend today. When this appeared on your calendar, you guys rolled your eyes and said to yourself, What is this guy going to do for me? How much time am I going to waste sitting in this meeting? Time that I could spend chasing down leads or closing other business, you’re going to think that I’m a snake oil salesman who’s just out to put my hand in your pocket, because I know it’s deep, and you’re probably going to have some issues with some of the things that I say going forward, and I’m going to Pause one to two seconds between each one of those to let them land for effect. Now here’s what I’m doing with that. The skill that I just demonstrated for you is called the accusations audit. And that’s an audit of the negative opinions, assumptions, impressions that the other side has about you, has about your company, has about who you represent, has about the conversation. This is a situationally insightful, intelligent guess based on the totality of the circumstances. This is me saying to myself, if I were them sitting at this table watching me walk into the room, what would I be thinking, and I just throw them out there. And what you’re doing, not only are you mitigating the negatives, but this is your first attempt at tactical empathy. You are a salesperson coming into a sales meeting talking about negative things, and they are going to look at you like, Wait, this guy, this woman is different, who comes to a sales presentation and immediately points a negative light back at themselves. That is one of the more selfless and altruistic things that you can do, where I am verbalizing things that you have not articulated yet. And is there any other way to show another person that you’re dialed into the totality of the circumstances? Then when you start to articulate things that they have not spoken into the air, that’s the power of this stuff. So the first words out of my mouth are going to be accusations audits, because I know they don’t want to be there. If you ask them, even if they scheduled the meeting themselves, they scheduled the meeting, it’s on their time. If you ask everybody in that prep sales presentation meeting, would they rather be doing something else, most of them are going to say, yes, I would rather be doing something else. So that becomes reported by accusations on it.
Rolando Rosas 13:42
Would you lead with that? Let’s take that same circumstance as an email or virtual call, right? You schedule it, and you’re expecting an email from somebody, you lead with an accusation. This, again, this is going to be, we don’t haven’t built that trust yet, right? We’re in the courting phase, if you would put it in a personal relationship standpoint. You lead with that to say, Hey, I know this is probably something the last email you want to read Exactly, yep, and then have the exchange. Here’s the
Derek Gaunt 14:10
thing, okay about email? If you are negotiating over email, stop it. You lose too much data in text messaging and emails because you’re lacking one to one human interaction. There’s a buffer in between you and the other person, emails and text messages in and of themselves, unless you’re typing in capital letters, they don’t have a mood, a tone or an emotion. However, people will infuse it. With tone and mood and emotion when they read it, and you don’t know what that’s going to be. And so for you and the people listening, there’s a great clip from the comedian duo, key and peel, where they’re going back and forth over text messaging, and what the sender meant was not received that way by the recipient. And so there was a clear disconnect in them going back and forth. With text messaging, you leave it up to interpretation from the other side, and what happens is, especially with email, you can craft a brilliant two page email with bullet points and clear paragraph breaks, and it could read like a dissertation. I’m going to pick out the two to three things in that email that I hate, and that’s all I’m going to fixate on. And so you spent two hours drafting this email, thinking that you laid out your position as best you could, and there’s two or three things in there that I really don’t like, and that’s all that I’m going to focus on. So having said all of that, use text, use emails to drive them to a voice to voice conversation. How would
Rolando Rosas 16:19
you do that? So Professor Gaunt, again, you’re not opposed to that. How do I then, you know, okay, boom, I sent that email. They say, all right. Or even better yet, and you’ve told me, Don’t try to let email be the primary form of communication. How in negotiation? Yes, right. How can then I or what words would allow me to have a better chance to succeed with, let’s say a zoom call, Hey, join me in a zoom call. How do I get that prospective person? What kind of words should I be using to move them forward into a zoom call with me, if that’s the next step.
Derek Gaunt 16:58
All right, so first of all, jumping on a zoom call may not be something that they’re comfortable doing, it’s an ask, right? So anytime you’re going to make an ask of anybody, that ask should be preempted by an accusations audit or two, and here’s why, an Ask changes status quo. Even if you were to knock on my door and say, Derek, can I have a cup of sugar? You’ve changed my status quo, whether in fact that you knocked on my door, my status quo was a certain way before you intruded, and now you’re going to make an Ask of me for a cup of sugar. I did not wake up this morning planning to give you a cup of sugar so you’ve put work on my plate that doesn’t already exist. I don’t care what the ask is, I’m going to get in my feelings about that in some way, shape or form, and this is not hysteria or anger or a feeling of betrayal or being taken advantage of. It doesn’t rise to that level. But on some level, you’ve changed my day. You’ve imposed on me. And so if you’re going to make an ass set it up with an accusations artist, so going back to your original question, to get them out of email on to a phone call. I will tell them in the email, this is probably the last thing you’re going to want to do. Would you be against hopping on a 23 minute zoom call so that we can talk about next steps. So accusations, audit, no oriented question, and the normal rated question was the ask itself, and that’s the easiest way. Now, there are people that are going to listen to this going, I’m dealing with a client. I’m dealing with a potential customer, and all they want to do is go back and forth over email. When I hear that, I say, number one, have you pushed the issue? No, you probably haven’t, because you’re afraid to, because you’re worried about driving them away, running away the business. Number two, if that is indeed the case, you have to ask yourself, why doesn’t this person want to engage me, voice to voice, that’s a red flag for me. When someone is refusing to interact with me on a personal level, they’re afraid of me, they’re afraid of a circumstance, or they’re trying to manipulate the situation in some way, shape or form. Let’s
Rolando Rosas 19:41
say you’re right on that last one, they’re trying to manipulate the situation. You don’t know exactly why. You don’t know the motivation why they’re trying to evade maybe they want to control the situation. Where do you go from there? Tested, okay, how
Derek Gaunt 19:56
it sounds like you have a specific reason you. As to why you’re reluctant to jump on a call. It seems like you have a reason for that’s the best way to flesh out why someone is conducting themselves in a specific manner is just to label the observation. Seems like you have a reason for not wanting to jump on a zoom call Okay, and get them to verbalize to you what the problem is. Now, if they’re never going to say because I’m trying to manipulate you, but you surmise that’s what’s going on, their response to that label is either going to further confirm that or refute it. You just have to pay attention to what your eyes are telling you as well what your intuition is telling you about their response. Now, if their response is such that you’re like, oh yeah, this guy is just trying to get over on me. Now you got to ask yourself a question, do you want to pursue this relationship any further? If
Rolando Rosas 21:09
you weren’t doing business? Yes, you make that good assumption. Should I pursue it further? Now I’m going to shift that. I want to shift that a little bit to, let’s say it’s my boss manipulating me. My boss. You’ve pretty much hit the end of the road at this point, if somebody’s trying to manipulate and I’ve made the assumption, you know what, I’m not going to pursue this anymore. I’m wasting my time here. All right, I’m going to do what
Derek Gaunt 21:28
everybody’s parent told them not to do, and I’m going to answer your question with a question, and that question is, why would your boss want to manipulate
Rolando Rosas 21:37
you? I’m not exactly sure. It depends on what their motivation and maybe they That’s
Derek Gaunt 21:44
what I’m asking you. What would be the motivation for your boss to manipulate you a direct report,
Rolando Rosas 21:51
they want a specific outcome. They want something from me. They want to say the thing, let’s take
Derek Gaunt 21:57
it down one at a time. They want a specific outcome. Why would they want that specific outcome to
Rolando Rosas 22:02
benefit them, to make them so
Derek Gaunt 22:04
why do they want to be benefited?
Rolando Rosas 22:12
Maybe they’re under pressure. Boom. I
Derek Gaunt 22:15
don’t know where that pressure is coming from, but they’re under pressure from somewhere. Are they newly promoted? Do they think that people within the organization are questioning their institutional knowledge and experience to be ready for the job that they find themselves in? Are they being transferred from one division to another, and they feel like a fish out of water? Did they just buy that beach house and now they’re worrying about whether they’re going to be able to carry the mortgage, depending on whether or not the deal that you’re working on goes through pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure. We are all under it constantly, and very few people articulate their recognition of that. So you got a boss that’s manipulating you, boss or no, if anybody is manipulating you, your first question internally should be, Where’s that coming from? Manipulation is born out of fear. They’re afraid that they’re going to lose something that they possess currently, if things don’t go exactly right. And so boss, it seems like you’re under tremendous amount of pressure right now. You label that circumstance for your boss, and if you do it face to face, watch the relief that will come over his or her face because they’ve been trying to send the message that they’re under pressure to anybody that will listen. The problem is nobody’s listening, and now you be the first person to recognize the pressure that they’re under. Now, the response could be, I don’t know, rogue, What makes you say that I don’t feel like I’m under that much pressure? All right, you’re conducting yourself like you’re under pressure, but yet you’re saying you’re not. There’s a disconnect there. Here’s the thing. Is that when you use something like a label, where you make a verbal observation about your counterparts, perspective, you’re not making that up out of whole cloth. They’ve done things, they’ve said things to lead you to that conclusion. And if they are now saying that, hey, I don’t know what you’re talking about, that’s a disconnect. And so your job now is to find out why there’s a disconnect. I didn’t say boss that you were under pressure. I said You seem like you’re under a lot of pressure, because here’s what I’ve noticed, and then I give them a summary. The past three weeks, you’ve been distant in aloof, sending me directives through email, not responding to my questions that led me to believe that you’re under pressure. How is what I’m hearing? How is what I’m. Seeing wrong. And so what I’ve done there is I said, Hey, Mr. Boss, Miss Boss, I’m not saying you are under pressure. I’m saying you’re giving all the signals that you’re under pressure, yet you’re denying it. There’s a disconnect there. Help me figure it out. And now you’re getting them to articulate what’s really driving them. It’s cathartic for them. They start to open up a little bit more. And now you can get to the real crux of the issue.
Rolando Rosas 25:28
I know that there’s a lot of people that are listening to this that are going to be or are in that situation, given that there’s so much turmoil right now in the business environment, I know you talk to a lot of business leaders, there’s so much changing happening everywhere, everywhere. It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, whether you’re in government, whether you’re in tech, whether you are in health care, everybody’s undergoing some kind of change, and it’s being forced upon you one way or another. And I think this is going to be very helpful. You know, you talked about something here, and you’ve used this word several times. And for those that don’t know or understand what the amygdala does and what it is, help us understand why that’s so important and the role it plays when you’re having these kinds of communications with people.
Derek Gaunt 26:17
It’s an almond size portion of your brain, at the base of the brain. Let me preface what I’m going to share with you by saying I am not a neurologist, okay? And I’ll not say stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. So
Rolando Rosas 26:31
it may not come out so eloquently. So
Derek Gaunt 26:35
it’s about the size of an almond. It’s a part of our limbic system, and the limbic system is basically our emotional part of the brain, and it’s reactionary. It’s our animal brain. It’s kept us alive for 1000s of years. We are primarily pessimistic people. We are ready to run or ready to fight based on the circumstances in order to survive, and the amygdala plays a large part of that, and when you are triggered, the amygdala takes over the brain, and so making it almost impossible for people to exercise the appropriate level of cognition.
Rolando Rosas 27:22
Are there trigger words? You said trigger? I find that fascinating, because I think words matter, and the accusations audit is part of using words. Are there words you should stay away from when you’re engaging with somebody, because you can be triggered by certain words? Have you found in your conversations, in your use of this methodology, that they’re words that you really want to stay away from when you’re having that kind of discussion with somebody. That’s a great question.
Derek Gaunt 27:48
So the words that I tend to advise people to stay away from, any yes oriented question, any question that you ask another individual where you’re specifically trying to get them to say yes to that question is offensive, because, from my perspective, I feel you taking me somewhere when you ask me yes oriented questions, yes is always obligation and commitment whenever I open my mouth and say yes, I’m secretly thinking to myself, What have I just committed myself to? What have I just obligated myself to?
Rolando Rosas 28:30
Even if those are like simple words, like, I’ll just give you an example, are you having a good day?
Derek Gaunt 28:35
Point? Well taken. What I’m saying is, when you ask me, Are you having a good day? Because this is some comment. There’s going to be, there’s going to be a little piece of me before I answer that’s going to look at you go, I wonder why he’s asking me that. Okay, now that’s different than you saying, how’s it going? Or, hello, a direct question. Are you having a good day? Immediately I think to myself, What am I giving off that would make it important for him to ask that question, because that’s not a regular salutation, right? You don’t walk past someone in target and say, Are you having a good day? Try it and watch what happens, because people are going to be defensive, because they’re asking themselves, if I say yes to this, what does that mean for me? This is the problem with yes or any questions. Chris Voss, author, never split the difference. He tells this great story him and his son walking through a parking lot trying to find their car because they couldn’t remember what level they parked us. So they go up to the security guard who’s manning the boost in this parking garage, and it says Acme security on his jacket. And Chris looks at the badge on the jacket and says, You work for Acme. And the horrified look on the security guard’s face when Chris asked that question, because immediately he starts calculating in his mind, it’s. Sack me on my shirt. Why would he ask me that? Does he not believe me? Does he not trust me? What happens if I say yes? All of those things go through his head in a split second, in for a brief period of time, he is in a negative emotional state. So yes or any questions, take them off the table. Words like, I understand. I get it, tell me more, or like, nails on the chalkboard for me, ooh,
Rolando Rosas 30:27
really. So I should not stay away from I understand, because that’s when a lot of people fall back on, when to an exchange. I understand what? Yeah, but here’s
Derek Gaunt 30:36
the thing is, you’re doing it for one of two reasons you’re doing it a to send them a signal that you they don’t need to talk anymore and now you are ready to jump into the conversation. Or B, it’s a futile attempt at common ground, and both of those are detrimental to a positive outcome in the conversation.
Rolando Rosas 31:00
What should my response be if somebody is saying something maybe I’m not too familiar with, but I kind of get what they’re saying just this kind of back and forth, this hypothetical example, like you said, Chris said, you know, do you work for Acme? Or maybe I could have interjected with a different question, depending on what he was looking for. It
Derek Gaunt 31:18
was a throw away question. Oh, Chris asked that question, to test the waters. He asked the bad question, to test the waters. What he really wanted to know was, would this guy be of any use to him in helping him find his car? But he didn’t know how the guy was going to respond to that question directly. So he tested the waters with, Hey, do you work for Acme? Which is similar to, how are you today? When, most times when people ask, how are you today? For How are you now? Or how are you they don’t care. They’re testing to see, are you in the mood to hear what’s going to come next? And so when someone comes up to me and will ask that question, how are you today? And it’s clear, based on the totality of the circumstances, that there’s something on their mind that they’re trying to get off their chest, I don’t even respond to the How are you today? I jump right into it. Sounds like you have somewhere you want to start, and that tells them I’m ready. Take some pressure off of them, because now they don’t have to guess if I’m ready, because I’ve already told them I’m ready. So the pressure is coming off of them. Their amygdala is starting to get back into place, and it’s clearing up their thought process so that they can now proceed in a intelligent fashion in the conversation, I
Rolando Rosas 32:48
want to ask you about something else. You’re a football fan. I’m a football fan. I played football. Did you play? Didn’t you didn’t play? So the hardest thing is not getting tackled. It is not tackling. The hardest thing is before that getting before you get the ball, before you make the throw, before you hit the three pointer. You said a lot goes through the brain right before you take that action. It’s all about, will I get hit hard? Do I know the play, what happens, and how should I react? All these things float through your brain that can short circuit what’s happening and the pressure, like you were saying pressure. So if you’re in some kind of pressure situation when you’re talking to somebody, I know that Chris says as well, you get to use your calm late night DJ voice at night to use this voice, but that is the hardest thing to do when you have somebody that may be hostile towards you, combative, angry, maybe saying things you do not like to hear because you get triggered. Right? What do you advise people to do right before the words leave your mouth to react to that, because you know you’ve been triggered. Now, if you say you son and so you you’re no good, and I can’t believe that’s coming out of your mouth, because that’s X, Y, Z, how do you before you let that? What do you do?
Derek Gaunt 34:19
So there’s a couple of things. Number one, you have to have a curious mindset. Number two, you have to expect and accept the fact that you are going to get attacked at some point during this conversation, even if it’s a sales presentation, like we had talked about at the top of the hour you go into that sales presentation with the mindset that somebody in this room is going to trigger me. They’re going to attack me during this conversation. It’s going to come out of left field. It’s not going to make any sense to me at all. I’m going to get triggered. So I’ve accepted that fact. Now can. Curiosity. We are conditioned to respond to presenting dynamics only. And so if somebody calls you a dumb, lazy sob, you are conditioned to respond to those words that came out of their mouth, okay, when you should be asking yourself, what made him say that? What made her do that, what made them ask that in every tough conversation, there is a presenting dynamic or emotion and there’s a latent dynamic or emotion. So think of it in terms of an iceberg. The tip of the iceberg is the presenting dynamic or emotion. What’s beneath the surface is the latent dynamic or emotion. You get more bang for the buck trying to determine what the latent dynamic is, as opposed to responding to exactly what came out of their mouth. If somebody lashes out to you, the first thought should be, where did it come from? I’m not sure. During a tough conversation, the attack is going to come from one of three places. Number one, they’ve been trying to send you a message otherwise, and you haven’t picked up on it, so you need to ask yourself, Where am I missing? Okay. Number two, we talked about this earlier. They’re under tremendous pressure on their side of the table, you have not acknowledged it. Number three, they’re trying to manipulate you. It doesn’t matter which one of the three buckets The attack comes from, you have to stay in the moment and figure it out. Did you miss something? Have you failed to acknowledge pressure? Are they trying to manipulate you? Most people, when they get attacked, get triggered. They either figuratively or literally, leave the conversation or they attack back. Right? I used to get the question a lot when I first started coaching, and that was, hey, Derek, listen, this is guy I got to have a conversation with. He’s an ultimate jerk. I know he’s going to get loud and belligerent. At what point in the conversation can I go back at him? And my answer to them is always the same, yes, you can. If your goal is to make him dumber, if your goal is not to make him dumber, then don’t go back at it. So it’s mindset first. Now I’m never going to tell you guys, stay in your seat, don’t get triggered during conversation, because it’s impossible you are going to get triggered. That’s not what the issue is. The issue is, how do you respond to the trigger, which I think is what your question was, yes. So the response to the question is, labels work externally, labels work internally. So if you’re going at me, I’m going to be labeling myself. He’s starting to piss me off. I’m starting to get agitated.
Rolando Rosas 37:57
You say to yourself, say to yourself, I’m starting to get pissed off. So what I do then I’m starting to get pissed off. You said something there really triggered me. Yeah,
Derek Gaunt 38:05
you’re saying it to yourself, okay? Because the same effect occurs your amygdala, the activity within it will start to dissipate when you start to self label. And this is not Derek Gaunt saying it. You can look it up online. The Internet is replete with academic studies and neuroscience that shows people hooked up to FMRIs. It’s remarkable that psychologists are still in business, because the advent of psychology was before we could see inside the brain. Now we can see inside the brain, and so now it’s not speculation as to what’s going on in the brain. Now we can actually see the electrical activity in the brain. So these people are hooked up to FMRIs, and the facilitators for the experiment would show them a graphic photographs horrific for the sake of this discussion, we’ll just say it was a mutilated cat, and they’ll show a picture of a mutilated cat, and they’ll watch the electrical activity in the hippocampus and the amygdala, and it’s going crazy. It looks like a polygraph chart on a habitual liar. It’s just going absolutely bat s crazy. And then the facilitator will say to the participant, what are you feeling right now? And the instant that the participant says, disgusted, grossed out, appalled, horrified, the minute that they verbalize that the activity in the hippocampus and the amygdala starts to dissipate, and so it works externally. That’s why we use it for other people, but it also works for us on the inside as well. If the bottom line is if you can taste just how good the words are going to taste when they leave your mouth and. Through the ear of your counterpart, they’re probably the wrong words to use. Can’t remember who said this, but if you make a speech in anger, it will be the best speech that you ever regret.
Rolando Rosas 40:10
Interesting. This sounds like even something you could use in your personal life,
Derek Gaunt 40:14
without question, without question,
Rolando Rosas 40:18
because I think interpersonal relationships are important. Professional Relationships are important. Network is important. And everybody wants to have a better relationship with their son or daughter or spouse. And it sounds like this is something that I can put in practice as well within my own personal life, as
Derek Gaunt 40:38
long as you’re dealing with anybody, two things are required, a brain and a respiratory system. If the person you’re engaged with has a brain and a respiratory system, the skills are appropriate, personally, professionally, it does not matter.
Rolando Rosas 40:55
It doesn’t matter if you’re introverted or the person you’re dealing with is introverted or extroverted or hot headed or not hot headed, it doesn’t
Derek Gaunt 41:02
matter, because all of us have in us, introvert, extrovert. All of us have within us an innate desire to have somebody else understand what our perspective is, what our environment looks like, what our circumstances are like. We all have it. For example, you and I are having this discussion. You make eye contact with me that eye contact is releasing dopamine and oxytocin in my brain, minuscule amounts, but I feel good talking to you because you’re engaged, you’re nodding your head, indicating that you understand. You said, I got my note. All of that is expressing interest, and that is something that we’re missing as a species on a regular basis, which is why these skills are so effective. People who use The Black Swan method, are the people that are being reached out to on a repeat basis. Why the people that you engage feel better about engaging with you? They don’t know why. They just know that RO is a good guy. I love talking to him. You ask him to pinpoint why the best they’re going to give you is that he’s just a good listener. And so you’re filling that need for anybody that you engage personally and professional. Then regardless of culture, doesn’t matter what you look like. Listen, it’s not by accident that hostage negotiators in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Europe, North America, South America, we’re all trained in the same skill set. And I hear all the time, yeah, Black Swan Group, your methodology is neat, but it wouldn’t work in Germany. And I’m like, I beg to diff because I know hostage negotiators in Germany are trained from the same playbook that the hostage negotiators in Washington, DC are trained from. And I’ve talked to people, I’ve coached people. I’ve instructed corporations that have offices. One company, they’ve got an office in Frankfurt, they’ve got an office in Mumbai, and they’ve got an office. I can’t remember the name of the city in China, and I had them report back on homework assignments. And regardless of whether it was Germany or Mumbai or China, they were talking about the efficacy of the skill within their culture. So it doesn’t matter where you come from, and to your earlier point, it doesn’t matter what the conversation is about you could be a merger or an acquisition, or it can be getting your 17 year old to complete their college application. The skills where most of your listeners, the viewers are going to struggle is these skills are counter intuitive,
Rolando Rosas 43:57
absolutely. I gotta tell you, I’ve heard of Chris for quite some time. I even bought his book, I want to say, probably within his first couple of years that he published it. It took me a long time to accept just the basic concept of you want to get to a no, like a no no, like no, what you’re saying no questions. Instead of getting to yes and no, it wrecked my brain just to wrap myself around like, What do you mean that you want to ask no questions? It is so counter intuitive. I want them to say yes, yes. I want to sign the deal. Give me the piece of paper so I could sign right now, right? You want them to get to know what,
Derek Gaunt 44:41
yeah, what a lot of people fail to realize is we are yes addicted and we are yes battered. We love to hear it. We hate to say it, the idea that you drive for you. Yes. And then there was this thing that had a lot of support in the late 1990s to the mid 2000s of this concept of mere M, E, R, E agreement, also known as Yes, able propositions, also known as yes momentum. The idea being, if I get row to say yes to a bunch of little things in the conversation, when I get to my big ask, he’s more inclined to say yes because he said yes to all of these bunch of little things in the conversation. In fact, interestingly enough, there are sales training companies that teach this as a process of Yes, tie downs. I want you to think about that for a second. You’re using a technique that is unabashedly called tie downs, and you think your counterpart likes being tied down. You tell me what person on the planet? I’m sure there’s a small percentage,
Rolando Rosas 46:09
but most, I’m sure we can Google it. Most
Derek Gaunt 46:11
people don’t like their autonomy, restricted like that. And here you are. These companies are teaching people techniques on how to tie people down with yes questions. Do you agree? Does that make sense? You’re on board, right? Don’t you want this benefit?
Rolando Rosas 46:33
You’re not wrong. You’re not wrong. Because my early professional career was with Philip Morris, which is the alter eg group, and they had a process of sales called the five step method, and that came from Anderson Consulting, and it sounded a lot like what you’re saying, getting to yes. Do you agree that this sign needs to be taken down? Yes. Do you agree that the signage is incorrect and we should put hours over there, yes, and that’s not the optimal way. I wish I had this methodology back then.
Derek Gaunt 47:06
When you think about the person who’s on the receiving end of that, they feel you taking them somewhere that you have not volunteered to go, and they’re resenting it every yes that comes out of their mouth. They resent it more and more and more, even if you get that final yes and you get the signature on the dotted line, and now you guys are in business because you peppered this person with Yes. You made them extremely uncomfortable. Yes, you got the deal, but I guarantee you, revenge is a powerful motivator, and the person that you air quote tied down with all of these yeses, even though you’re under a contract with them, they’re going to make your life difficult. They’re going to pay you back in some way, shape or form. They’re going to make you feel the pain as close as they can approximate it, they’re going to make you feel that throughout the entirety of your relationship.
Rolando Rosas 48:08
You don’t want that. No, you don’t want that. That’s going to be a miserable relationship,
Derek Gaunt 48:12
no, and you’re going to constantly chase them for late invoices. They’re not responding to your phone calls. They’re missing deliverables, they’re missing due dates, they’re missing everything because they’re paying you back because you forced them into that. Yes, this is not rocket surgeries. Yeah, this is not rocket surgery. Any yes oriented question with a little brain power can be turned into a no oriented question. Are you still willing to do this? That’s a yes oriented question. I can change that too. Have you given up on? I’ve
Rolando Rosas 48:42
heard Chris say that one. He cites an example with Shark Tank Roberts, where he sent him an email. He says, Have you given up on coming to an event or something like that, where he said, like, within a minute, he got Robert to send him a response back using that question, you have you ever been ghosted? Of course,
Derek Gaunt 49:01
most of the people listening to this have been ghosted. You’ve sent text messages, you’ve sent phone calls, left voicemails, you’ve sent emails and nothing. And this is for people that have promised to do something, right? Yes, and then they disappear. That have you given up on email the clients that I have are batting way over 900 with this particular Have you given up on so if you’ve been ghosted, subject line only, there’s nothing in the body of the email, your subject line only is going to read, have you given up on partnering with us in this endeavor? The main part of it is, have you given up on and then you can fill in the rest. Send it. Caution, don’t send it. This is the Hersh COVID point. Don’t send it unless you’re ready to talk right there, because when they get it, number one, the verbiage. Is particular by design. Have you given up on most people? Not 100% most people don’t like to be viewed as a quitter, regardless of what the circumstances is, and giving up implies quitting. Have you given up on whatever? If you send it, make sure you’re ready to engage them in the phone call right away, because they’re going to respond almost immediately, unless they absolutely cannot. The long as I’ve had anybody wait is 72 hours, and that’s only because the woman was in labor, but ordinarily, they will call back to tell you, No, I haven’t given up on and they will give you the reason as to why. And now you’ve got further information. Now you got more information to go on, but that have you given up on? People are killing it with
Rolando Rosas 50:48
that killing I love that. You know sometimes in business, and you’re a businessman now you’re not wrestling alligators, and I don’t think wrestling alligators and dealing with a terrorist anymore. I know you probably retired that, but there’s times where you’re like, I’m gonna make them an offer they can’t refuse. This is from the godfather. This is where he says, I’m gonna make you an offer you can’t refuse, you know? And obviously the circumstances here there may not be the most favorable. You just kind of take it or leave it, but when you want that outcome, if you’re in your brain, if you’re a salesperson, you want to get to a point where you make that offer, right? You’ve given us all the meat and potatoes, all the blocking and tackling, to get to that point. How do you finish that off so that you can make an offer that they can’t refuse, whether it’s either signing on the dotted line or to continue conversations, I’m
Derek Gaunt 51:45
going to give you the standard negotiator answer. It depends. It really does. We have a general structure of the conversation. So the general outline is going to be, from my perspective, it’s going to be summary accusations, audit a vision label, then it’s my turn to talk. At the conclusion of my turn to talk is when I make my ask. But notice the sequencing of this conversation vision label, then it’s my turn to talk. And so you’re asking yourself, well, what’s a vision like? One of the first things out of my mouth is going to be after the accusations audit and the summary is wrote as I was preparing for our meeting today, I was thinking to myself, you probably have a specific vision for what this partnership between you and I could possibly look like in the next one, three to five years. Would you be against walking me through that vision? Now, we haven’t signed anything. There’s no formal agreement made, but I’m taking the time to get your side first, let the other side go first. You’re a salesperson. They’re not expecting you to let them go first. What they’re expecting is for you to come in, stand up on the table and pitch a bunch of gain and benefit about why you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. That’s what they’re expecting. And you hear you are coming in and going tell me what you’ve been thinking about. There’s nobody that’s going to be in that sales presentation, there’s nobody in that negotiation, there’s nobody in that meeting that has not fantasized to some degree what it’s going to be like to working with you, or else they wouldn’t be in the meeting. They thought about it. And so I want to find out what is it that they’ve been thinking about I don’t really care what they say in response to that. It’s the overture that’s more important than what the actual information is. I’m going to be listening carefully to information, but that wasn’t the purpose for the vision label, but I’m going to listen to it. I’m going to label those things that benefit me. I’m going to label those negatives to get them out of the way. And then I’m simply going to say that after I’ve beaten that course to death, I’m simply going to say to them, would you be against me walking you through what I was thinking about? Now, I’ve asked permission in an or in a fashion, I’m asking permission to talk. They don’t get that from anywhere else, and they’re inclined to grant that permission, because why I lent them an empathetic ear first. And one of the biggest characteristics of tactical empathy is that it encourages reciprocity. You give it first. You’ll call it in later. Now I’ve taken care of the negatives that they were thinking about. I’ve let them go first. Remember, I’m trying to remove myself as a psychological threat in the conversation, doing a pretty good job of it by now. Now I’m going to ask, would you be opposed to me walking you through what I was thinking? Now it’s time for me to get up on the table and pitch gain. Benefit and explain. And after I’m done with that, is when I make my ask,
Rolando Rosas 55:05
Wow, so you’ve primed them in a way so that they would almost say yes, but without the objections that come in when I’m a salesman I’m pitching. You know, I’m the best we got, the best customer support and all that.
Derek Gaunt 55:23
Think about it like this. Remember I talked about, when you walk into the room, they’re like this, yeah, you do what you’re starting with tactical empathy. You get to the back end of the conversation. Now their hands are on the tape, because why you’re no longer that threat. Now, if I get to the point where I say, you are how many widgets do you want in your first order? And you say, I’m not sure, but we do launch your widgets and we want them by the end of this date. All right, that’s your first yes to me, most people will hear that and go. Got it. I’m not out of the woods yet with you. Okay, that was your first Yes. I’m going to test that. Yes, at least twice more. At the very least twice more. Tell me more where I’m going to say this is my follow up. So what sounds like you’re on board. What remains a question is quantity, and I’m looking for you to say yes again. Now this is not yes momentum. Don’t confuse the two. What I’m doing is moving you from a counterfeit Yes. That’s your first Yes. Any agreement that you get, the first agreement that you get from anybody, I want you to consider it BS. They didn’t mean it. So I’m going to hit it at least twice more to move it from counterfeit, yes to confirmation, yes to commitment, yes. Okay, once I’ve gotten those three in. Now, this is huge. You know that you are in front of me for a finite period of time, which means you’re going to go back to your world at some point. I guarantee you that somebody in your world is going to have a problem with the agreement that you and I struck. I do not know who that person is. It could be a son, it could be a wife. Husband. Could be a boss, could be a co worker, could be the person that tends bar at the place that you frequent on a regular basis. Somebody is going to have an issue with what you agreed with me about. And so I know that going forward, I’m going to say just those things. I’m say Rob, listen. Experience has shown me that there are going to be people in your world that are going to raise concerns about what you and I agreed to okay, what concretely Are you going to say to them in order to allay some of their fears or concerns? What do you need for me to make that conversation go better. And what I’ve done there is I pointed out a problem that I know is going to happen, and I air quotes made you come up with the solution, which means you’re more likely to follow through with it, because it was your idea, but I didn’t say that was going to leave you on an island, because I said at the very end there, what do you need from me to make that conversation go better? And then I’m going to hit you with if I haven’t heard from you by x date, what should my next move be that’s
Rolando Rosas 58:37
better than when can I get that proposal, or when should we follow up, or what’s a good time to come back? Okay, exactly got it,
Derek Gaunt 58:47
and the more robust your response is to each of those, I’m feeling better and better about our agreement, and so test your agreement, test your yeses often, but make sure that you tell them specifically that there’s going to be problems on your side. What are you going to do about it?
Rolando Rosas 59:05
Love this. This is, man, I wish I had this back back when I was coming out, even before, before, when I was in school. This could have served me a lot better. Derek, I just don’t have an infinite amount of time. I have a very finite time. So I want to ask you this before we leave off, what should people do? You’ve left us with a lot of good stuff, a lot of nuggets. So if you’re listening to this, replay it back, because there’s going to be a lot of stuff I’m going to be rewinding when I listen to this episode. Is there anything else that people should think about as they’re approaching this, whether it’s mindset, whether it’s playbook, whether it’s tactics, whether it’s in another analogy or story that you feel is important for people to grasp what you’re saying today.
Derek Gaunt 59:51
Two things, one, I’ve beaten over the head since we’ve been on this call, but I will repeat it because it’s that important understand. If I want or I need, is in your head or in the head of your counterpart, you are a threat to them, as long as you remain a threat, meaningful dialog is not going to take place. Don’t think that you can work around that threat by just dumping information on the other side, explaining, explaining, explaining, explaining, explaining, because it’s not going to work. Second thing is going into every conversation say to yourself, This is not about me. Here’s where most people run into a problem we want to convince when I ask people, How did that last negotiation go? Didn’t go well, didn’t get the business. What do you think the problem was? I just didn’t pitch as well as I should have, I didn’t explain as well as I should have a if I just explained it better, they would have seen the light and come to my side. No, that’s not what the problem was. Problem was they were sending you signals about something else that was important to them, and you ignored it because you were so focused on your goal and your objective. It’s not about you don’t stand on the other side of the street trying to beckon your counterpart over to your side of the street. You’re not going to convince them to do that. Walk across the street, stand shoulder to shoulder with them, and look at what they’re looking at the minute that you can do that, and the minute you start articulating that, that’s the minute that the barriers come down, and this, while it may seem like it’s slowing you down, is going to speed you up to get to the resolution that you want, and it’s going to make you more money. Bottom line,
Rolando Rosas 1:01:31
I love that last part. Make you more money. Who wants to turn that down? Give me more money. Show Me the Money. Show me the money, baby. I love that. I love that. Derek, if people, they’re hearing this and like, I want more, where should they go? What should they do? Go
Derek Gaunt 1:01:51
to our YouTube channel. We have Black Swan YouTube channel, bunch of free content on there. You can see us doing our thing, some of the live events that we sponsor. And then you can go to our website, Blackswanltd.com. We’ve got a plethora of free resources that you guys can download and start to get your mind around. Now, granted, nothing is going to take the place of online, virtual training, which we have. Nothing’s going to take the place of in person, live events that we have. Nothing takes the place of one to one coaching that we have, right? But you could get started by buying the book, watching the master class, going to the YouTube channel, getting your head around this concept of tactical empathy and then going out low stakes practice. Don’t go into a board room with a bunch of executives and try to do this tomorrow. Go into the Starbucks tomorrow ask the barista how he or she is doing when they respond. Label that response whatever your intuition is telling you about the response. So you walk in the Starbucks, Hey, how’s it going today? It’s been and you respond to them by saying, it sounds like you’ve been getting kicked in the teeth since you’ve clocked in this morning, and watch how much more information they give you about how cruddy their day has been going, and watch how long they stay engaged with you. Watch how irritated the people behind you are starting to get because the barista will not let you go because you are taking the time to express interest. And like I said earlier, everybody wants someone else to understand what their perspective is. And then use the other techniques on the following days, get your repetitions in. Once you get your repetitions in, it starts to become reflexive. It starts to become almost like muscle memory at that point. And then you’re not even thinking about what to say you’re just saying and then stay curious, go into all of these conversations. I don’t care if you’ve been working with this person for 20 years. We use the boss subordinate example earlier today. Let’s say you’ve been employed and working under this boss for the past five years. I guarantee there are things going on with that boss that you have no clue about, and so stay curious. You should be trying to uncover Black Swans in every single conversation, and the only way to do that is curiosity, curiosity, curiosity.
Rolando Rosas 1:04:35
You know what? That’s just beautiful, because that can apply to a lot of people. And I don’t even want to add to add to that, because that’s just excellent. So Derek, I really appreciate your time today. I’m glad you sat down with me, gave me a little bit of your time, and it’s going to help. I know it’s already going to a bunch of notes, but it’s going to help me be a better person, a better boss, a better podcaster as well. Yeah, and. So I really appreciate you sitting out with us today. Go check out Derek, and he’s all over YouTube and go LinkedIn. Follow him as well, Chris as well. You know, he puts out a bunch of stuff. You guys are like, cranking out, you and Chris and that stable that you got that deep bench over there at Black Swan with a bunch of the other trainers that you got a lot of good stuff going on over there?
Derek Gaunt 1:05:25
Yes, yeah, I’m happy with the guys. And when I say guys, I mean people, because we’ve got women on the coaching cadre as well. Yeah,
Rolando Rosas 1:05:32
no, they do a great job. They’re very, very smart cookies over there. So Derek, thank you very much. I appreciate it. And if you have been nerding out on this conversation with Derek and me, I invite you to go ahead and hit that subscribe and like button, because it lets us know that we’re on the right track, and we want to bring more guests like Derek to the show, and it helps the algorithms love the likes and subscribes as well, so more people will get a chance to hear this message. So I appreciate if you would take a moment to do that. And if your business and you’re wondering yourself, I’d love to partner up with a trusted partner and you have complex technology needs, that’s exactly what Global Teck Worldwide does. That’s what I do during my day job. We solve complex technology problems. There’s links in the description, someone on my team will be glad to help you. You can book a call if you would like as well, and if you found this conversation with Derek very interesting. You know, we talked to former FBI Cyber Crimes Task Unit Leader James Morrison, who talked about why you want to pay attention to what’s going on in the cyber space and how there’s vulnerabilities today that are so much easier to get at because of technology. Go check out that episode with James and I. I will see you in that episode. Thanks for hanging out with us today.
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